www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Roman Orthodox Church

I've been reading a lot about the Church Fathers, and asking a lot of questions of
an Orthodox friend. We have discussed the
growth of the Western-Roman Church from Charlemagne, until now, he said there was an
Orthodox Christian Church which was pro-East
before Charlemagne and others began
pushing and marginalizing its influence...
Enlighten me. Is this true? I thought Charlemagne was more of a secular figure...
more like Constantine...why did he care?
Secco

The Oriental Orthodox churches were in existence much earlier than the Orthodox churches [the so-called Eastern Orthodox churches] were.

"The Oriental Orthodox churches were in existence much earlier than the Orthodox churches [the so-called Eastern Orthodox churches] were."

?

There was no such term before the split after the Council of Chalcedon, so as "churches" it's hard to tell what you mean.

The liturgies used by the Oriental Orthodox are generally older than the present liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, that is true -- is that what you mean?

Brendan

'scuse me, but am I missing something? It's raining verry hard today and my brain may have gotten wet, but I thought the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox were different names for the same critter.


Puzzled,


Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

P.S. Of course there is also our dear and distinguished participant Edward Yong, who is not Oriental Orthodox, but a most Orthodox Oriental. (Couldn't resist....)

Sharon --

The terminology is admittedly confusing.

I think Michael was referring to the so-called "non-Chalcedonian" Churches -- specifically the Armenians, the Copts and the Jacobite Syrians. These three are in communion with each other (and not formally in communion with anyone else at the moment) and are often referred to as "Oriental Orthodox" to distinguish them from the "Eastern Orthodox" with whom they are not presently in communion.

Brendan

Dear Sharon,

In Vatican II terminology, the Eastern Catholic Churches are almost always referred to collectively as the "Oriental Churches" in the sense of "Eastern Churches" period.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches are distinguished from the non-Chalcedonian Churches as "Oriental Orthodox Churches" although there are EO people who would simply call them "Oriental" without the appellation of "Orthodox" since they regard them as heretics for rejecting Chalcedon.

This reminds one of the situation in Merrie Olde England when the Archbishops of York and Canterbury tried to agree on their titles to see who was "First."

York called its Metropolitan, "Archbishop of York and of England.

Canterbury called its Metroplitan, "Archbishop of Canterbury and All England."

We can always rely on the English to cut through the confusion . . .

Alex

Dear Secco,

I could be wrong (I am not the one who's infallible ), but I think your friend is referring to the Orthodox Catholic Church of the West before the split of AD 1054 and prior to the influence over the West that Charlemagne's Frankish theologians were to exert.

It was these theologians who insisted on putting in the Filioque into the Creed and this created a downward spiral of East and West relations until the split.

The "Romans" were the original Orthodox Catholic Church whose culture was Greco-Latin, whose languages were Greek and Latin and who were part of the Christianized Roman Empire or "Romania."

They were to be found in the West and in the East and Charlemagne's theologians were and are seen by Orthodox (notably Fr. Romanides) as the innovators who broke up the peace and unity of the Church.

Charlemagne was himself a Christian Emperor although how Christian he was is up to each of us to decide . . .

Church and state were very much in harmony with one another then, with Charlemagne and other Emperors calling the shots.

Charlemagne, empire-builder that he was, was canonized by an anti-pope and is in the Roman calendar under Jan. 28 as "Blessed Charlemagne."

His cult along with that of Sts. Roland, Oliver and Turpin, was widespread throughout the Holy Roman Empire at one time.

Alex

Thank you gentlemen!

Boy, learn something new every day.Or maybe learn something old every day.

So Oriental is us & them in Rome, but it's them unless you're not in Chalcedon, except on Tuesdays when the moon is full.......

Oy!

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Sharon,

You are always so full of pregnant ideas

May God and St Gerard bless and protect you!

Alex

Alex, That is exactly what I was asking,
sorry if I confused anyone...This is new
ground for me...I think God uses a lot of people we wonder "why" them? Constantine,
Charlemagne? Not St. Francis of Assisi or
St. John by any means! Yet, there exists the
Church,because of some and in spite of others. It's facinating,and concerning to me.
I don't think there should be a "model" that all churches must adhere to. I think
some would like a Western model with no trace of the East and visa versa. I've watched EWTN, been blessed,but it is here
that I'm learning about something mystical
wonderful, and real...I struggle with intellectualizing my experience, and anyone else's. The Fathers of the Church and their writings opened up much more than any show
on EWTN or book by Scott Hahn, also attending Divine Liturgy. So, here I am.
Secco

Dear Secco,

I share with you a fascination with how God uses various types of saints to make His influence felt in the world. The Ethiopians honour St Pontius Pilate based on an apocryphal letter, but I find much beauty in it nevertheless!

The Fathers of the Church, as Stuart will definitely tell you were intellectuals, but their understanding of the "intellect" was different than ours today.

The mind and the heart must be at one which is the purpose of the practice of the Jesus Prayer.

What you say reminds me of Simeon's prophecy to Our Lady, that a sword will pierce Her Heart so that the secrets of many may be laid bare.

Alex

Dear In Christ,

Now I don't really believe this website is all that fair (mildly Anti-Catholic), but to give you an idea of the theory of preCharlemagne Romans, etc., check out:
www.romanity.org [romanity.org]

anastasios

[This message has been edited by anastasios (edited 05-23-2001).]

Dear Anastasios,

Thank you for this link, it is great!

As for being anti-Catholic, I remember speaking to an Eastern Catholic priest who was having trouble with Rome for some reason.

I asked him about an Orthodox saint who was somewhat anti-Rome.

His only comment to me was, "who isn't?"

Alex

Anastasios,Alex...A hearty Thank you!
I will check the link. Alex, what do youy mean by Simon's prophesy. Of course, I know the Scripture...I'm thinking about all the divisions of Christ's Body the Church these centuries since the prophesy. I know they
must pierce her Heart...Yet, if my Journey
deepens my faith then...its worth it.
I'm not anti-West...but I'm not certain
all the revisions and Vatican 2 were best...
Not to mention the very brief Masses often said so someone can run...I think the Mystery
is missing today...If I find it anew East
I'm there... He is Risen!
Secco

Secco, your words are very true.

Great saints, like Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Ignatius Loyola, Bernadine of Siena, etc. have all described the 'demon that prowls by night' and that demands of us that we 'think deep in your hearts while lying still'. Many of us lie awake at night and review our lives and wonder what is going on, and where God is at 3:15 a.m.

It's not unusual for those who have read the Gospel and who have prayed about what one's own personal responsibility is before the Throne of God.

The answer is: just pray and keep confidence in the Holy Spirit that is promised by the Lord. And work your tail off to both love God and to serve your fellow creatures. With this, you'll sleep soundly.

Liturgy is of less importance than a pure heart that loves God and one's neighbor.

Blessings!

Christ is Risen!

[This message has been edited by Dr John (edited 05-23-2001).]