www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West If Eastern Catholicism did not exist

This is uncalled for provocation and presumption.

There is no requirement that we agree on substantive issues at all.

Beyond the substance of ideas and knowledge, I don't know you well enough to form an opinion of any kind.

The best thing to keep in mind is not to attribute words or ideas to me at all. Then I will never have to adjust for that part of any of your correspondence to the Forum.

Eli

Dan, this post gets the crown. Look up autonomous and autochephaly. Then you accuse Andrew of circumventing! Come on, your post is totally one sided and rude and ignorant of the facts. I suggest further study of Orthodoxy before you make such false and inaccurate statements.

Once again Dan, I suspect your intentions are either manipulate the truth to have your point be seen as the winning opinion or you are just mis-informed.
Generally I would sit back and watch this sort of debate, but when you start to swing at the knees I have to step in and speak up.
It isn't very nice to twist, manipulate or distort things to make your position look better.
You have offended me. Having a position is one thing, arguing your side is fine, but when you manipulate things, it isn't very nice.

I think a nice apology to the Orthodox here on this forum is in order.

I think there�s probably not a whole lot more that can come of this. I�m asking what I think are not unreasonable questions. I�m also not looking for a way to bash people. I really am interested in the answer. So far I�ve gotten three answers I can identify to my question, which is why I keep asking for more detail. It�s not clear to me there is any one answer.

I can only state that from my perspective, whatever the union of Eastern Catholics with the West did or does mean; it has come at the cost of disunity with the rest of the East. I still maintain that the issue of disunity in the East must be resolved as a precursor to unity with the West. The issues that stand out to me in particular are the parallel patriarchates and having Eastern Christians under a Western patriarch. This is not about shoehorning people in to some place there don�t want to be, but establishing the order and climate that is necessary for real unity between East and West. A large part of that is healing the open wounds in the East. Nobody, save one potentially, seems to agree with my position.

I�m also sorry if people think I�m a bully, I don�t feel as though I�m bullying. I do think I am asking some difficult questions and I guess putting forward some unpopular ideas. I don�t look at the Eastern Catholic churches or individual Eastern Christians as objects of contempt. I see a family tragically split, and what I see as the first priority is the healing of the East.

Andrew

Dear Pyrohy,

One of the worst things to do, unless you really do wish to start a round of corrections is to put words in other people's mouths. The other thing that one can do is to "suspect" aloud over someone's intentions.

You do not know Daniel's intentions.

There are ample examples of perfectly canonical interrelationships in Orthodoxy that do not exemplify some idealized unity and uniformity, including ROCOR's new eucharistic communion with the MP, and the division of the Diocese of Sourozh.

Daniel's words may have been clumsy but they are not all wrong or inherently wicked of intent as you suggest so inadvisedly here.

Be of good will and let us not pick a fight where there is no real need to even raise an eyebrow.

Eli

Andrew:
For what it is worth, I also agree with your position.

~Isaac

Don't just accuse. Demonstrate if you reslly wish to communicate.

CDL

You first. Generally speaking I have no idea what you're talking about.

CDL

Andrew,

I'm beginning to understand your position. Would you agree that Eastern Catholics could come into communion with some of the Orthodox without breaking communion with Rome? If that is what you are suggesting then I'm in total agreement. I pray that this happens.

CDL

Eli,

Thank you for your defense though I'm usually not considered to be particularly clumsy. I apologize because I seem to have misunderstood your post to me earlier.

I'm a bit confused. How is your position any different from any of the thousands of Protestant positions?

"And like Orthodox jurisdictions now, ROCOR, Sourozh, for quick examples, we will continue to exist because we are and we have a right to be as long as we remain in union with the Body and do as we are called to be and do in the magisterial command of Christ the King."

They speak of an invisible unity. They speak of obedience to Christ the King. How is that any different from your position?

I can readily agree that we have a right to exist because we do exist. Would you say then that there are three legitimate Churches all being one? Or would you say that we are the only true Church and if the Orthodox not in communion with the Bishop of Rome and the RCs who disdain our position need to get with the program and unite with us? Or are you saying that we really can't tell which of the thousands of Churches claiming to be the one and only has the rightful claim and so we must just wait until the Lord sorts it all out?

CDL

I never waste my time with loaded questions. It is better for you not to waste your time asking them of me.

Eli

Eli,

That's not particularly helpful when I asked several other questions besides. I'm glad that you are comfortable, or apparently comfortable, in your own position in the Eastern Catholic fold. You aren't always very forthcoming, however.

I won't belabor you with my own experience but suffice it to say I do want the Church to grow and I do need council on how to offer what I have in helping it to grow.

CDL

No, because while the two sides remain apart, you can�t have it both ways. The path the Eastern Catholics took, and what has been articulated here, is that Union with Rome is the impetus of Eastern Catholicism. A choice was made to break with the Eastern Patriarchs, and everyone must live with that choice.

What I would say is simply becoming more Eastern or more Orthodox in and of itself is not a model of unity, especially if in the framework of a permanently divided East. A model of unity is actually preparing to rejoin Orthodoxy � this is something that should be proposed, discussed and planned as to how it would actually work. I think Catholics need to think long and hard about what this would mean. I also think the Pope needs to encourage Eastern Catholics, and the Eastern Catholics encourage themselves, to really begin laying the groundwork for all of this to happen. I have not actually seen evidence of this happening, but it may have somewhere.

I guess the danger is internally within Eastern Catholicism you could spark a conflict between those who identify with the Orthodox and those who identify with Catholicism. I don�t see how at some point that isn�t going to happen one way or another though.

Andrew

Andrew,

I take it that you are pretty new at this. If you actually represented Orthodoxy I would be greatly offended and wonder why on earth Eastern Catholics would wish anything at all to do with you. But you really don't. So I will resist being offended.

What really should happen is each of us should ask ourselves if what we consider to be so important about our separation is really enough to offend our Lord over.

CDL

Ok Dan, Can I suggest a few books?
I may pm you a little list if you wish.