www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West An Eastern Pope?

I know Pope John Paul II's leadership was instrumental in helping Poland and other countries see the downfall of Communism. I have wondered if next Pope should be someone from a country oppressed by Islam - one who knows persecution firsthand and who knows how to be an Ambassador to the Muslims and bring the Gospel to those lands which forbid public proclamation. With God, all things are possible.

Woody

> A recent feature Opinion-Editorial (April 10,
> 2005) by Nicholas Kristof in the New York Times
> has suggested that the next Pope will permit
> priests to marry. See the following article ...

The author appears to oppose Christian Tradition! He sees married priests as stepping stones to women priests. Therefore, I must discount his opinion as having any merit within Christianity; it is the secular view of an outsider, nothing more.

I am descended from a priest. My wife is descended from an archpriest. Most priests I know are married, and I'm not fond of the modern Orthodox practise in some jurisdictions (including ROCOR) of ordaining celibate secular clergy. So, clearly I support ordaining married men to the priesthood, and I would hope that the Roman Church soon ends its ban on Eastern Rites' ordaining married men in the West! After Vatican II, I've read, celicuy was imposed on the Italo-Greeks (can anyone confirm or contradict this?) and the ban affects everywhere where the Roman Rite is dominant, not just North America. Rome should honor its promises to to allow uniates their ancient customs! No wonder so many Orthosdox don't trust Rome! If it can't do this, then I can't see lifting the ban on celibacy in the West, where there is no extant tradition of married priests, and the infrastructure (e.g., recories and staff) have evolved without considering priests' families.

With greetings for the Saturday of the Akathist Hymn,
Photius

Photius:

Celibacy is a Latin tradition and I, for one, is content with this discipline! You have yours and we have ours.

There is no effective ban against married clergy in the Eastern Catholic Churches now, or it has been lifted without fanfare.

It seems you have not come across the disdain our Eastern Catholic brethren have for being pejoratively called "uniates!" Forewarned?

How would you feel if we substituted your Church in these invectives and say "ROCOR schismatics?"

Amado

maybe the bans been lifted, but do you know of any married men being ordained in the Metropolia? I know the Ukrainians are doing it, but I don't really know about the Byzantines.

Domilsean:

At present, is this non-ordination of married men into the priesthood (of the Eastern Catholic Churches) an effect of the ban or the manifestation of a paucity of vocations, or a combination of both?

Amado

Amado:

Photius obviously doesn't care who he insults. Haven't you noticed how his knowledge is just so superior to everybody else's?

hal

Amado,
> Celibacy is a Latin tradition and I, for one,
> is content with this discipline! You have yours
> and we have ours.

Agreed! I didn't intend to write anything that implied otherwise, a;though I did say lifting the ban shouldn't be considered unless Unites are free to ordain married men first.

> There is no effective ban against married
> clergy in the Eastern Catholic Churches now, or
> it has been lifted without fanfare.

There isn't??? It was forbidden in North America 1929. Now, I understand it ordaination of a married man to the preisthood is allowed with permossion from Rome, which is also how it is permitted in the Roman Rite. If this is not so, then correct me and please accept my apologies.

> It seems you have not come across the disdain
> our Eastern Catholic brethren have for being
> pejoratively called "uniates!" Forewarned?

I didn't think "Uniate" is perjorative ... a lot of Catholic writings, both by Eastern and Western Catholics used the term ... perhaps a bit archaic, but not perjorative! No offense was intended, only less typing tha :"Eastern Rite Catholics".

> How would you feel if we substituted your
> Church in these invectives and say "ROCOR
> schismatics?"

I would feel that you are being a traditional Catholic, who reckons anyone not subject to the Pope of Rome a schismatic. However, I abstain from intentional insults, and I think it best for communications that we all do. If "uniate" offends you, I'll use it no more!

Photius
(Off to the local Greek Monastery for the service of the Akathist Hymn ... will probably not be back on the forum until tomorrow afternoon.)

... and not a moment too soon if you ask me.

I don't find the term "Uniate" to be offensive. In this part of the country, it simply means those of an Orthodox Church which reunited with Rome by treaty. Perhaps that term might be offensive somewhere, but not where I live. I consider union with Peter to be a good thing.

"I am descended from a priest. My wife is descended from an archpriest. Most priests I know are married, and I'm not fond of the modern Orthodox practise in some jurisdictions (including ROCOR) of ordaining celibate secular clergy. So, clearly I support ordaining married men to the priesthood,.."

Dear Photios,

I am a cradle Greek Orthodox and as far as I'm concerned, a sin is a sin is a sin. The Latin Church might have problems with some of their celibate priests, but we in the Orthodox Church have problems with our married priests as well. While their sins might be only sexual, ours can be sexual as well as 'greed'.

I say this not only because of my many years of experience, but also because Father Arseny stated in one of his books, that Russia would not have become communist had it not been for the sins of their priests....their married priests, mind you.

Better to admire those virtuous young men that are willing to sacrifice a wife and children in order to serve our Lord, than to use 'celibacy' as a means of condemnation in a "our way is better than yours" attitude.

Zenovia

back to the title of this thread:

An Eastern (German) Pope? Well, not quite, as Bavaria was West ("Bavaria-- The place every German wishes to be from")

One day, there WILL be a Pope from the East - again.

Oh that yesterday would have been that day!

Dear Friends,

While Photius did use the term "Uniate," it is clear he did not intend it in a pejorative way.

We certainly take it as such here, but that doesn't mean that the term isn't or hasn't been used in a way historically that is not pejorative.

Our ancestors following the Union of Brest did, in fact, refer to themselves as "Greco-Uniates."

And Orthodox Russians also used "uniate" to refer to Old Believers in communion with Moscow.

And there is quite the difference between "uniate" and "schismatic."

No need to jump all over him!

Alex

Dear Zenovia,

> I am a cradle Greek Orthodox and as far as I'm concerned, a sin
> is a sin is a sin. The Latin Church might have problems with
> some of their celibate priests, but we in the Orthodox Church
> have problems with our married priests as well. While their sins
> might be only sexual, ours can be sexual as well as 'greed'.

I do not understand why you are writing this to me; I was simply defending the practice of ordaining married men to the priesthood in response to someone who thinks that all priests should be unmarried. Also, I went on to uphold our custom of ordaining only monks or married men, which is still the practice of most of the Orthodox Church, but some jurisdictions, such as ROCOR (which I am a member of) now ordain men who are neither married nor monks.

> I say this not only because of my many years of experience, but
> also because Father Arseny stated in one of his books, that
> Russia would not have become communist had it not been for the
> sins of their priests....their married priests, mind you.

There is no way for me to know how much truth there is in this speculation. I could write a whole book about facts I know and rumors I've heard about clergy, both married and unmarried, about all manner of sins including several allegations of practicing black magic, but I do not see how anything edifying would come of my writing about such things.

> Better to admire those virtuous young men that are willing to
> sacrifice a wife and children in order to serve our Lord, than
> to use 'celibacy' as a means of condemnation in a "our way is
> better than yours" attitude.

I refuse to comment on this both because I have neither the time nor the inclination to commence a discussion about the matter and because I fear possibly offending to hosts of this forum, who are not Orthodox.


While I'm posting to you, I will remind, even though it is quite out of context here, that in another, closed thread on this forum, you advocate that those who disagree with you (at least about ecumenism) should have their property confiscated, be thrown out of their dwellings and rendered homeless, and should not appeal their plight to a higher authority to have that plight reversed. While I'm generally slow to judge, in this case I find your opinions to be the epitome of intolerance and hate; this affects my taking seriously any opinion of yours and especially such statements as "as far as I'm concerned, a sin is a sin is a sin."

Photius