www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Great Cathedral of Constantinople

The huge cathedral in Instanbul formerly owned by the Greek Orthodox, is Hagia Sophia.... yes?

Any ways - Wouldn't it be wonderful to see this huge and grand cathedral renovated and back in the hands of the Greek Orthodox Church? What I don't understand is why the Turks do not turn this cathedral back over to the Orthodox Christians? Could Rome help? And if the Vatican helped to restore Hagia Sophia back to the Orthodoxs and helped financialy to renovate this great cathedral.... would not this be seen by the Orthodox as a real and sincere step by the Catholic Church to reconcile and perfome penance for the failures on our side in past East - West relations?

I don't know but it seems a shame and criminal that something as significant as Hagia Sophia is not returned to the Greek Orthodox Church - and through the G.O. - the greater Christian world.

I mean it is almost heart-breaking that this great architecual gem is left to - what looks like - fade away. I know the thing needs desperately to have some fresh paint put on it. Has any Greek official ever asked the Islamic world to show the tolerance it historicaly gloats about... and return the important Christian cathedral back to the Greek Christians????

Yes, the holy and righteous thing would be for the Turks to return Haghia Sophia--Aya Sofiya to the Turks--to the Greeks.

And the holy and righteous thing for the Spanish Catholics would be to return the Alcazar Mosque to the Muslims.

But do I believe either will happen?

No I don't and for obvious reasons.

Abdur

PS-The Turks are like the Greeks...and all Balkan people, Muslims or Christians: the more you push them, the more stiffnecked they become. The Aya Sofiya issue is one the Greeks and Turks must work out among themselves. Foreign involvement would only compound the problem.

Abdur,

Sounds like an even trade.


Maximus,

A great gesture of charity. Hopefully, such acts will forever absolve the sins of the past, especially the Crusades.

Dear Maximus,

An excellent point! Happy Easter, by the way!

The Tsars of Russia had, for years, yearned to capture Aghia Sophia and place a Cross on top of the Crescent on the main cupola.

The question today is would the return of Aghia Sophia to the Greek Orthodox in a city where there are so few Greeks for one thing, and where the memory of the Crusades (given the current ongoing battle between Islam and "modern Crusaders") help to heal memories, or revive them?

I don't know.

I think it might do more harm than good just now.

Alex

And the holy and righteous thing for the Spanish Catholics would be to return the Alcazar Mosque to the Muslims.


Dear Abdur:

Could you please tell me what became of our ancient Christian Churches, Shrines, Monastaries, Convents etc. which existed in Spain and Portugal before the Moorish invasions?

Spain and Portugal were Christian hundreds of years before Islam, you speak as if there exhisted nothing in these lands before the Moors came to Iberia.

I can't say for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if the Alcazar was built on top of a Christian Church.

Let sleeping dogs lie.

defreitas

[ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: defreitas ]

...and Christian temples are built on top of pagan temples. Travel through Greece, Albania, and Bosnia and you will find ample evidence of that.

I certainly do not believe that Spain has no pre-Islamic history. I do not know why you would think that of me.
But, that is not important.


Was the Alcazar built on the foundations of a Christian or pagan temple? I don't know. But it was built as a Muslim mosque by Spanish Muslims and Moors; that we know for certain.

Of course, I do not believe the Alcazar will be returned to her "rightful owners," anymore than I believe Aya Sofiya will be returned to the Greek Christians. Miracles are very rare, indeed!

But one can dream. And I am certainly proud of almost 700 years of Spanish Islamic history. How could one expect me not to be?

Of course, the almost 259,000 Muslims of modern Spain glory in the Islamic past of Espana.

Abdur

Dear Abdur:

I could respond to your statements, but I will not.

The subject is too historicaly painful, even now.

I do not glory.


Sincerely
defreitas

I understand. Half of my family members either were or are Orthodox Christians. I understand.

Abdur

Yes, and Happy Easter OC & all.

Abdur, I've never heard of this Alcazar Mosque. And at first I was kind of like well... wasn't the Moors expeled from a land they invaded and conquered... so what bargining chip do they have to reclaim Alcazar Mosque? But then Sophia is the bargining chip... yes! And I see no reason why adults shouldn't be able to get together and do what would be best, right, and just thing. In this case why couldn't all involved get what they want. That is presuming the Vatican, Spanish Catholics, and the Muslim Turks would want to do the right thing in this case, and presuming the Greek Orthodox higher ups would ever trust or be comfortable with the Vatican participating in negotiations with the Muslim Turks. -- Maybe your right miracles are rare LOL!

The Hagia Sophia should be returned to Holy Orthodoxy. It is theirs by right. It is the great cathedral of Eastern Christianity.

It was taken by invaders just as the mosques in Spain were built by invaders. While the Moors were great teachers and architects, the Iberian natives always saw them as invaders. They would not have fought for 700 years to drive the Moors out if it were different.

While some may wish for th Alcazar Mosque to be returned to Islam, the way Arabs are viewd in Spain these days (I am NOT putting down any Arabs, simply relating what my relatives in Madrid have told me), well, it ain't never goona happen.

I agree with you, but watch out, because pagans will demand the Pantheon back too.

Presently, agree with Alex. The church would be empty almost all the time, except for tourists.

Daniil

The majority of Spanish Muslims were never Moors--Arabs--but converts from the indigenous population---hardly foreigners, I would deduce.

Also, the Visigoths were also invaders, essentially conquering Iberia from the earlier "Latin" population. In other words, the Moors were just one more group of invaders among many groups that invaded and settled "Spain."

The Spanish Muslims (again:indigenous converts to Islam including the majority of the Visigothic nobility )
can hardly be described as foreign Arabs since they were the descendents of all of the previous "indigenous" Iberian ethnic and racial groups.

Spain was the homeland of the Spanish Muslims and their love for "Andalusia" was legendary.

No, the Alhambra, Alcazar, and other great Spanish Islamic sites are the work of the devotion of those Spaniards known as Muslims, and not just of the Arabs.

Certainly, my point of view is not religously or politically correct, but it is the historical truth.

Never say never!

Man proposes, but Allah disposes.

Ojala! Ojala!

Salaam,

Abdur

Mudejars

http://lilt.ilstu.edu/bekurtz/mudejareb.htm

[ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

A great gesture of charity. Hopefully, such acts will forever absolve the sins of the past, especially the Crusades.[/QB][/QUOTE]


Why are the Crusades considered a sin? They were holy wars fought to reclaim the Holy Land and stop the Muslims from invading Europe and destroying Christian civilization. Sure some of them failed but the intentions were good.

Robert K.

Why are the Crusades considered a sin? They were holy wars fought to reclaim the Holy Land and stop the Muslims from invading Europe and destroying Christian civilization. Sure some of them failed but the intentions were good.

Robert K.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Robert,

J Thur might have been thinking of the sacking of Constantinople by the Crusader West, which helped weaken it's defense to the Muslim Turks. But yes I like you favor the Crusades... by-in-large. I always say that if it weren't for the Crusades then there wouldn't have been enough Christians around for a Reformation.

***

I don't know all I have faith that with new life breathed into Sophia she would bring forth a bustling of new, energetic, human life, caped around her scenic beauty. It would be nice to see on the travel channel, Sophia, Turk & Greek, a glow with enjoyment and contentment, mothers pushing babies in strollers, and old and slouched and young and firm breasted sipping cappacinoes and tasting Italian ices (or whatever it is they do) bought at the umbrellaed merchant stances set up along the sidewalks of Hagia Sophia.

"You build, they will come."

The Crusaders savaged Haghia Sophia, brought prostitutes into the Holy Temple, and entertained themselves by watching these "cultured and refined" Latin ladies (?) defile the Holy Altar while dancing on it...and worse. Not even the Turks ever sank that low.

Because of the Crusades, Haghia Sophia will remain---forever---a museum piece. Even if she was reconsecrated to the worship of God, the elderly (and very small) Greek population of Istanbul could never comprise a viable congregation.


I have Greek cousins, and they certainly aren't waiting---with great impatience---for the opportunity to immigrate to Turkey!

And the Turks? For them, Haghia Sophia is spoils of war. It is symbolic of the triumph of Turk over Rum (Roman), Islam over Christianity, and intelligence over stupidity.


The Turks believe the Crusaders were congenital morons. Why else---they would reason--- would the Crusaders have killed, weakened and alienated the very Christian
Byzantines who could have served as their allies against Islam?

Point well made!


Besides, contemporary Greeks have different priorities---including making peace with the Turks.

The Haghia Sophia issue would only cause friction, between Greeks and Turks (and others), that today's Greeks--especially the young--want no part of. Haghia Sophia has been a mosque or museum for 549 years! Even while experiencing the deepest and most legitimate pathos and longing for the return of Haghia Sophia to the care and devotion of the Greek people, the ever practical Greeks realize one cannot feed one's children on sentiment, no matter how profound and legitimate.

Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]