www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix ?

Hey there, first let me apologize to Alex for any misunderstandings that I may have caused, I have a lot to learn!

Now for my question.

There is a movement in the Roman Catholic Church to have the titles Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix dogmaticaly acclaimed for Mary.

Why are they doing this?

What do Byzantine Catholics think about this?

What do the Orthodox think about this?

Will this help or hinder any reunification attempts between the Churches?


Your little brother in Christ,
David

First, there is no movement from Rome to do this. There was a petition to Rome to address this issue, however at the present time Rome has stated that there is no intention to dogmatically define these titles.

Properly understood there is no problem with them, but they would tend to cause more confusion and the effort to correct the confusion would outweigh any benefits that might be derieved.

Since I am not Orthodox I hesitate to speak in their place, but based upon their reaction to the Immaculate Conception I suspect that they would be greatly annoyed should these titles be declared.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Let me give you my thoughts:

The pope refused to declare this b/c of the language. He was afraid it would send the wrong message to people(putting her on the same level as Christ). This is not to say that he doesn't support this, he does.

I have a problem with the language. "Co" to me gives the idea of equality. Certainly, Mary played a very special, intimate role in the Incarnation and Redemption; but I think that "co" is a bit too strong. I also have a problem with calling her the "Mediatrix of all Graces." It gives the idea that one NEEDS Mary to be saved. Now don't get me wrong, of course Mary is a powerful intercessor, but faith in or devotion to Her is not NECESSARY for Salvation.

I don't feel comfortable with the concepts or the wordings of these titles. This may shock certain people here who know me as a staunch Traditional Catholic

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the terms. If that is the case, than I beg forgiveness; but my present understanding does not allow me to support this movement.

Columcille

Father Deacon,

I never meant to imply that the Vatican was behind this. There are elements within the Roman Catholic Church that wish for this to be and are actively promoting it. I know of at least one Religious Order that is doing so.


Your little brother in Christ,
David

Dear David,

No offense taken, Little Brother, no problem!

Father Deacon is right and these two proposed doctrines are among others that have been promoted by certain circles in the RC Church over the years.

Another is the "Immaculate Conception of St Joseph," still popular in Spain.

I recently came across an antique Catholic medal with the "Holy Hearts of Jesus, Mary and Joseph."

The Orthodox Church would oppose defining these as dogmas simply because they are not part of the central realities of our faith i.e. Holy Trinity and Christ.

The devotion to the Mother of God is something that is within the Heart of the Church.

The rich liturgical prayer in honour of the Mother of God in the Eastern Church already proclaims that She was conceived in total Holiness, that She is Ever-Immaculate and Most Immaculate, that She was taken, body and soul, into Heaven, that She saves us by Her prayers (Most Holy Mother of God, save us) etc.

The above two doctrines are therefore already present within the "lex orandi" of the Eastern Church.

There is no need to define them formally for that reason as well.

Alex

From the Orthodox pov, there was an interesting piece not terribly long ago written by Bishop KALLISTOS regarding this issue. The upshot is that the new terms would add nothing to the faith, could create considerable confusion, and would add to the list of things to be discussed between our churches -- BUT would, if properly understood, probably not be doctrinally heretical.

Co-redemptrix is meant, properly understood, to indicate that the role of the Theotokos in salvation is so central precisely because she bore the Word incarnate who conquered death by death. She is a central participant, therefore, in the act of redemption. Seen in that light, it's not doctrinally problematic, even from an Orthodox pov -- but the problem is that the prefix "co" indicates an equality, a joint-ness, that really isn't the case. Co-redemptrix, on its face, will be taken to mean "joint" or "co-equal" -- and that would be objectionable to both Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology, as even the Roman Catholics, who hold that the Theotokos was immune from Original Sin, believe that this is the case because she was redeemed by Christ "in advance", so to speak. Given the likelihood for confusion, it seems unwise to add this title, which would in effect add nothing to the faith already confessed.

The title "mediatrix of all graces" is somewhat less troubling. In fact, there are Orthodox troparia that refer to the Theotokos as a mediatrix. In a very real sense, as "our mother", as our chief intercessor, the Theotokos is a mediatrix, in the sense of an intercessor, between us and the Trinitarian Persons, and particularly her Son. However, the potential for confusion is significant here as well -- because the implication could be that (1) the Theotokos is the sole mediatrix (which she is not) or that (2) only through the Theotokos can grace be acquired (which is not true, either).

Again, the central idea -- that St. Mary played a central role in salvation, and is a powerful intercessor for us before the Creator -- is not objectionable and is already believed by all. These additional wordings seem to add nothing to what is already believed, while adding a considerable risk that they could be interpreted in a way contrary to the faith. As such, it seems like it should be left alone.

Brendan

Originally posted by Columcille:

"Now don't get me wrong, of course Mary is a powerful intercessor, but faith in or devotion to Her is not NECESSARY for Salvation."

Hmmmm...I not sure about this. As Catholics (capital C), we are bound by the Magisterium to accept all dogma set by the Church. Two recent pronoucements, as you know, are the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. It is necessary for salvation for Catholics to accept these two dogmas. Therefore, faith in Mary is necessary. Devotion, on the other hand, depends upon one's love. Granted, how Mary's prayers and intercessions "contribute" to our salvation is a mystery.

Greg

Dear Friends,

My own Eastern sense of devotion to the Mother of God is that it IS necessary to salvation since veneration of Her is veneratiion of the Incarnation.

We can't have the Incarnation without Her. Christ's Humanity is taken from Her, from Her blood etc.

Icons of the Incarnation have Her together with Her Son.

And Her Son isn't an abstraction. God Incarnate has a Mother.

We cannot be saved, further, without the Communion of Saints. God has decreed that our Salvation depends not only on Him and what He has done in Christ, but also on our relationships to one another which is also where we find Christ.

This is why, in the Eastern Church, devotion to the Saints is devotion to the Incarnate Christ our God Who is present in them through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, belief in and devotion to Our Lady is part of the plan of salvation of God through His Holy Church.

Let's also remember that the integrity of Christ's Identity as One Person in Two Natures was proclaimed as Orthodox Faith through the use of "Theotokos" the "Bearer of God."

Finally, the Seventh Ecumenical Council of the Church anathematized those who did not invoke the Saints in prayer.

You RC guys should read Eastern Theology and the Councils more .

Most Holy Mother of God save us!

Alex

[This message has been edited by Orthodox Catholic (edited 06-22-2001).]

You are correct. I was talking about devotion. I would never encourage someone to not have devotion to the Blessed Mother, but said devotion is not NECESSARY for salvation. If that were the case, it would make Christ's sacrifice insufficient.

Columcille

I must respectfully disagree. Our salvation was won on the cross by Jesus. While devotion to the Blessed Mother is a great thing, I still contend that it is NOT necessary.

If I have faith in the saving work of Christ, follow the precepts laid down by His Church, yet don't have devotion to the Blessed Mother, am I lost?

I believe that this thinking may equate to Mary being co-redeemer. I can't accept this.

Columcille

Columcille:

I suspect that the problem here is one of confusing the functions. Mary was essential to salvation becuase it was her womb that contained the uncontainable. It was her humanity that was assumed by the Logos. In her he took flesh and became man. Therefore, it is necessary for salvation to have some level of devotion to Mary.

In the sense that she cooperated with God's plan she was a "co-redeemer" since, as I said, without her there is no redemption! Let me use a more human analogy. Clearly the male and the female who cooperate to produce a child are equally the parents of the child. Yet, of course, the father's part in this takes a few seconds while the mother spends, nominally, nine months. Are their roles equal? Of course not!

So, too, Mary cooperated in the salvation of the whole world through her submission to God's will. Is her role equal to that of Jesus? Of course not!

Brendan:

Actually, the title "Mediatrix of all grace" is more troubling for a Latin. In sacramental theology the graces that flow through the sacraments come directly from Jesus. The Latin expression is ex opere operato which means "from the work that is done" -- and this is shorthand meaning that all sacraments, regardless of who is presiding, are actually done by Jesus himself. Thus, Mary does not enter into this picture vis-a-vis grace. This was, in fact, part of the discussion at the Second Vatican Council when the assembled Fathers discussed the use of this title.

Again, however, properly understood all graces flow through Mary since, as the Theotokos, she was the way in which Jesus entered the world fully man and fully God.

Edward, deacon and sinner

[This message has been edited by FrDeaconEd (edited 06-22-2001).]

Dear Columcille,

But, Friend, to proclaim the Incarnation of God in Christ Jesus is to already involve the Mother of God!

There is no prayer to Christ in our Liturgy that is not somehow related to Mary at the same time.

To try and separate this or that as being "more" and the other "less," is not historical Orthodox Catholicism, East or West!

Let me put it this way.

You say that belief in Mary as Mother of God is necessary, correct?

For an Eastern Christian, you cannot separate belief from worship. "Orthodox" means, at one and the same time, right belief and right worship.

To believe in the Mother of God and to not, at the same time, express one's devotion to her, is an impossibility for the East and should be also for the West (and the North and South to boot!).

As for what is "necessary" for Salvation, that is a bit legalistic/spiritual accountancy sounding in Eastern ears.

Everything that the Church offers by way of faith and devotion is "necessary" and there is never a time when we can say, "Well, I've done enough, reached that line, that's it for me!"

And remember, in the Hail Mary which is a Scriptural prayer, Our Lady is praised first by the Angel and only afterwards is Jesus, the "Fruit of Her Womb" praised.

Alex

Bless, Reverend Father Deacon,

You are more than correct, Father!

And I have read in the Octoechos how the Mother of God is precisely extolled as She through whom the grace of Her Son proceeds. I have even found references to our being "Her slaves" (a la St Louis de Montfort!).

Devotion to Christ is inextricably bound to devotion to His Mother, the instrument of the Incarnation.

For me, Christian salvation is about the revelation of Divine Grace and Love as something upon which we depend at all times.

The Trinity is about Three Persons Who are bound up with each Other in perfect Love.

The Incarnation is about how Christ binds Himself to us and our humanity through His Mother Mary.

The same is true of the Communion of Saints.

Without the Church, there is no salvation!

And Mary is the Mother of the Church, as John Meyendorff said, as the Body of Christ.

Alex

Alex,

I think we are pretty close on this. I think that perhaps you are misunderstanding me a little(my fault for not being able to articulate my thoughts as well as others). You rightfully point out how the mysteries and doctrines of our Faith always have Mary closely and intimately involved. I wasn't speaking so much about this as I was about reciting the "Hail Mary" for example. However, you are most correct in pointing out to me how, without Mary, so many of our mysteries and Faith is incomplete. I thank you for reminding me to look at it from that angle.

Your faithful student,

Columcille



[This message has been edited by Columcille (edited 06-22-2001).]

Dear Columcille,

God bless you, dear friend, and I too am a student!

Let's leave the serious teaching to Dr. John, Stuart, Brendan and +Basil.

Does not the Imitation of Christ say it is much safer to be under authority than to be the authority?

God bless,

Alex