www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Orthodox Influence on the RCC

I came across an interesting article on an OCA site that talks about Orthodox influence on the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Orthodox-Influences-on-RC.html

Can anyone think of other influeces that Eastern Churches (Orthodox and Orthodox in Union with Rome) have had on the Western Church?

Don

This I think was the most important part of Fr. John's article.

Gaudior, in thoughtful comment.

Bless, Father Don!

Actually, I think the good Fr. John Matusiak may be saying too much there!

In fact, icons used to be the common patrimony of both East and West, even though statuary has also come to characterize the West.

Byzantine-style icons, even miraculous icons, have been in the Roman Church for centuries, even before the schism. There was never any hesitation on the part of RC's to venerate Eastern icons, such as the Mother of God of the Passion or Our Lady of Perpetual Help, Our Lady of Zhyrovitsi (my avatar) or Our Lady of Pochaiv - all of which are listed as icons of the Church of Poland and there are others.

So this can hardly be called an "Orthodox" influence on the West.

It is true that RC's are more open to Eastern-style icons than was perhaps formerly the case.

The most important influence, I think, is that of the spirituality of the Jesus Prayer, Hesychasm, et al. in the West, especially as introduced by such writers as J.D. Salinger in his "Franny and Zooey" (which is where I first came across a reference to "The Way of the Pilgrim.")

One may today take classes in how to say the Jesus Prayer run by non-Christians in a kind of "new age" setting . . .

Then there is an emphasis on the Epiclesis in some Eucharistic Prayers of the Roman Mass.

Some of the things initiated by Vatican II are said to be an Eastern influence on the West - but as others have pointed out, in a number of instances the influence was Protestant. For example, Fr. Keleher has been known to disagree with the Eastern influences in the Roman Church etc.

The renewed emphasis on scripture, the psalms and the idea of the Liturgy of the Hours being the prayer of the ENTIRE Church - this is something that is surely common to both Orthodox and Protestants.

Another important point to consider is that the Roman Church may be more open to both Orthodoxy and Protestantism these decades (witness the growth of Reformation theology studies and doctorates at Catholic universities), but it could be that it is rediscovering its own past in the first millennium and is appropriating lost traditions accordingly.

Alex

Dear Father Don (I presume you are a priest based on Alex's greeting):

One eastern influence on the new Roman Catholic mass that comes to my mind is the introduction of the sign of peace. However, in their mass, the practice has become largely a hand shaking/hugging practice.

The sign of peace was not intended to be employed in that way. The traditional sign of peace as it is used in the Chaldean Church, Maronite Church, and I believe other Churches of the Syriac tradition is quite different. At Vatican II, the traditional way was introduced, but for some reason it is being done differently now in the Roman mass.

The traditional way goes something like this: A deacon/subdeacon goes to the altar and receives the sign of peace from the priest by extending his hand, but not in a hand shaking manner, but more of a prayer-like folding of the hands. Then the sign is given to the people gradually from one to the other. Those in the back cannot give the sign unless they receive it first, in other words, no one in the back can initiate it. So, it is done in a much more solumn and orderly way.

Some Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox Christians here might be surprised to know that the sign of peace is originally an eastern practice. I once attended a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy and a Melkite Divine Liturgy and neither had it, which confirms for me that the sign of peace is not a Byzantine practice though certainly eastern.

God bless,

Rony

Some other possible influences from the East since Vatican II:

- communion under both species
- liturgy in the vernacular
- increased participation by the laity in the Liturgy
- standing while receiving communion
- permanent deacons
- a free-standing altar (apart from the wall)

Note, some of these might also be considered Protestant influences.

Some things have changed away from the Eastern way, such as facing the people during Mass.

Dear Rony and Francis,

I still say that all of what you present was once part of the universal Latin Church practice - and also, in a number instances, something that the Reformed Catholics reintroduced (i.e. "Protestants" ).

We have no way of knowing if the Latin Church brought these practices in as a result of either:

a) Orthodox/Eastern Catholic influence (although we'd like to think so! )

b) Protestant influence (Matthew Spinka and others have argued that a number of theological points discussed at Vatican II were taken directly from the Protestant Reformers and also from the writings of John Hus).

c) A return to former Latin Church practice, even before the schism of East and West.

But if I were the Pope, I wouldn't say anything and let both the Orthodox AND the Protestants believe that they had some influence over the Latin Church . . . good for ecumenism!

Alex

http://praiseofglory.com/taftliturgy.htm

i think this article by taft may be appropriate here

Good point, Alex. What I should have said was that these things were reintroduced in the West after Vatican II. As to whether the East was the major factor in these reintroductions, I cannot say. But I would guess that the East played a part in showing many in the West that they are valid practices, as shown by their constant usage in the East.

Someone forgot communion in the hand, a Protestantism I believe, that should be changed. Where did all those Eucharistic ministers come from ? Is not the dispersion of communion a priestly duty ? I don't think these came from the East.

james

Note: please pardon my raving, I have found myself becoming like tall grass, blowing in the wind, East & West, it is causing much me anguish.

Dear Francis,

Actually, your point is very intriguing!

For example, the issue of the Bishop in the West being the minister of Confirmation - but I believe now the priest can be as well (?)

But this was a change brought in over time in the West.

Also, the use of the Christogram when blessing the faithful (i.e. index and middle fingers extended, thumb and last two fingers together in some way) is now used by Latin bishops and even by some priests where it was formerly reserved to the Pope alone.

Its reservation to the Pope was a tradition, not mandated by law - and I see more and more Latin priests blessing the people in this way. I asked one Jesuit I know about it, and he said that he had indeed studied its history and taken it from the East.

Alex

Hmm James

Can't produce the quote accurately now - but it runs in my mind that St Cyril of Jerusalem gave instruction as to how Communion in the hand was to be received - with the hands making a throne for the Body of Christ - so that is not a Protestanism.

As to your other thoughts - yes I have sympathy with them.

Anhelyna

Indeed yes Alex

The Bishop in the Minister of Confirmation - but certainly here he also appoints some priests to act for him.

In the Parishes the Parish Priest does Confirm at Easter the Candidates from the RCIA process but Confirmation of young people is done by one of the specially apponted Priests as well as the Bishop.

Anhelyna

Anhelyna,

Thank you for the info, I indeed will look further. I am experiencing some type of a spiritual flux today and need to level out!

james

Anhelyna,

I located your info, St. Cyril's 4th Mystagogical Cathechesis, Holy Communion.

Thanks,

james

I was surprised to hear that you attended a Ukranian Divine Liturgy and no Sign of Peace. if concelebrated the priests exchange the sign of peace just before the Creed.

In the monastic tradition it was always given just before Communion. One places ones left hand on the left shoulder of the person and you touched your head to your hand. The Dominicans had an image of the Lamb of God which was passed around and every one kissed it.