www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West John Chrysostom...

...on venerating the Eucharist. I heard he promoted this and I was looking for some quotes. Anybody care to come to my aid?

Myles,
I like your new picture. If only she were Queen of Europe again...

�...You see that same Body, not in a manger, but upon the altar; not carried in His Mother's arms, but elevated in the priest's hands. Let us, therefore, be roused, and tremble, and bring with us more devotion to the altar than those Eastern kings did to the manger, where they adored their newborn Saviour.� � St. John Chrysostom

Not much there but I hope it helps.

Dr. Eric

Any little helps and believe me Dr Eric as you see a great sign in the heavens, a woman surrounded by 12 stars (the number of stars on the EU flag) believe the Virgin of Fatima who says 'my Immaculate Heart will triumph'

17. St. John Chrysostom who, as you know, dealt with the Mystery of the Eucharist in such eloquent language and with such insight born of devotion, had these most fitting words to offer on one occasion when he was instructing his faithful about this mystery: "Let us submit to God in all things and not contradict Him, even if what He says seems to contradict our reason and intellect; let His word prevail over our reason and intellect. Let us act in this way with regard to the Eucharistic mysteries, and not limit our attention just to what can be perceived by the senses, but instead hold fast to His words. For His word cannot deceive." (5)

38. Moreover, Christ is present in His Church in a still more sublime manner as she offers the Sacrifice of the Mass in His name; He is present in her as she administers the sacraments. On the matter of Christ's presence in the offering of the Sacrifice of the Mass, We would like very much to call what St. John Chrysostom, overcome with awe, had to say in such accurate and eloquent words: "I wish to add something that is clearly awe-inspiring, but do not be surprised or upset. What is this? It is the same offering, no matter who offers it, be it Peter or Paul. It is the same one that Christ gave to His disciples and the same one that priests now perform: the latter is in no way inferior to the former, for it is not men who sanctify the latter, but He who sanctified the former. For just as the words which God spoke are the same as those that the priest now pronounces, so too the offering is the same." (38) No one is unaware that the sacraments are the actions of Christ who administers them through men. And so the sacraments are holy in themselves and they pour grace into the soul by the power of Christ, when they touch the body. The Highest Kind of Presence

49. St. John Chrysostom insists upon the same point with these words: "It is not man who makes what is put before him the Body and Blood of Christ, but Christ Himself who was crucified for us. The priest standing there in the place of Christ says these words, but their power and grace are from God. This is my Body, he says, and these words transform what lies before him." (53)

-Mysterium Fidei Paul VI

Is the Triumph the Reunification Council?

My dear Latin friends!

St John Chrysostom did indeed promote the worship of Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist - and all other Fathers would agree with him - but WITHIN the context of the Divine Liturgy.

This quote should not be used to somehow underscore the extraliturgical devotion to the Eucharist that exists in the Latin Church - that would have been quite foreign to the Eastern (and Western Fathers) at that time.

Alex

Like I wrote, I couldn't really find anything about Eucharistic Adoration in his writings. I did however, find an article from Fr. John Hardon that seems to suggest that St. Basil did reserve some of the Eucharist for adoration.

"It is interesting to note that one of the first unmistakable
references to reserving the Blessed Sacrament is found in a life of
St. Basil (who died in 379). Basil is said to have divided the
Eucharistic Bread into three parts when he celebrated Mass in the
monastery. One part he consumed, the second part he gave to the
monks, and the third he placed in a golden dove suspended over the
altar.

This would suggest that, though we have less access to Oriental
sources, the Eastern monasteries were centuries ahead of the West in
reserving the Eucharistic elements in the monastic church proper and
not only in a separate place."


Also of interest:

"Not only did they have the Sacrament with them in their cells, but
they carried it on their persons when they moved from one place to
another. This practice was sanctioned by the custom of the
<fermentum>, that certainly goes back to as early as 120 A.D. The
rite of <fermentum> was a particle of the Eucharistic bread
(sometimes dipped in the chalice) transported from the bishop of one
diocese to the bishop of another diocese. The latter would then
consume the species at his next solemn Mass as a token of unity
between the churches. It was called a <fermentum> not necessarily
because leavened bread was used but because the Eucharist symbolized
the leaven of unity which permeates and transforms Christians, so
that they become one with Christ."

Here is the link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HISTOREA.TXT

Or maybe it was kept there for communion for the sick?

There was no such thing as "eucharistic adoration" (as it is understood today). It was unknown by the Fathers.

The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano is described below. This is where the West gets its Feast of Corpus Christi. Notice that the Priest in question was from the order of St. Basil.

"One of the most well known Eucharistic miracles happened around 700 in a monastery named St. Longinus. (The church was eventually rebuilt and renamed the Church of St. Francis). A priest of the order of St. Basil was saying mass and was suffering from recurring doubts about transubstantiation. This is the term used to describe the changing of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. After the priest had spoken the words of the Consecration, the Host suddenly changed into a circle of flesh and the wine was transformed into the visible blood. The flesh remained in tact but the blood in the chalice divided into five pellets. Both were placed in a reliquary for viewing by the faithful. Several scientific studies were made of this miracle. The most current one was conducted in November, 1970 by respected scientists from the fields of anatomy, pathology, and chemistry. A small sample of the flesh was taken for laboratory examination. A detailed medical and scientific study was published in March, 1971. The flesh was identified as striated muscular tissue from the myocardium (heart wall) having no trace whatsoever of any materials or agents used for the preservation of the flesh. Both the flesh and sample of blood were found to be of human origin. The blood and flesh were found to belong to the same blood type, AB. The relics were eventually moved to a monstrance on top of the main tabernacle of the Church of St. Francis. Individuals can view this reliquary which remains in tact more than 1200 years later. "

Dear Dr Eric,

The golden dove mentioned in connection to St Basil the Great is also something used in Byzantine Churches today (our parish of St Demetrius in Toronto has one).

It is used EXCLUSIVELY to reserve the Sacrament for the sick and dying.

Now, certainly, when the Holy Eucharist is carried to the sick and dying, it would be appropriate for people meeting the procession (from whence your Latin Eucharistic processions originated) to bow etc.

But the notion of an extraliturgical service to adore the Most Holy Eucharist (while laudatory if you are a Latin) would have been foreign to St Basil - and even to the Western Fathers at the time.

By the way, did you know we have a form of Eucharistic blessing RIGHT DURING the Divine Liturgy? Yes, we do . . .

The priest blesses the faithful with the Chalice ie. with Christ Himself in the Holy Eucharist and, in some cases, touches the heads of people lined up on his right as he proceeds to the side altar or "proskomidiynyk."

And you Latins thought you were so smart . . .

Any other patristic quotes we should know about, Sir?

Alex

Dear Dr Eric,

One more thing, sir . . .

The priest of the miracle of Lanciano would have been "of the order of St Basil" not in the modern sense of "Basilian Order" - the Latin Basilians didn't come about until the 19th century, I believe.

Along with the Rule of St Benedict, the RulES of St Basil were fairly common to the majority of monastics, even in the West.

They would not have referred to themselves as belonging to a separate "Order" in the modern sense of religious orders in the Latin West.

Do you see how far you Latins have come away from the ancient Church?

Alex

Somebody should have told that to Fr. John Hardon before he died.

I knew that the priest blesses us with the Eucharist during the Divine Liturgy as I was present and all eyes and ears during the whole Liturgy. Another example on how and why I've been bitten by the Byzantine Bug! The symbolism, the sights, the sounds, the smells!!!

I guess that's why the assumption was made that Eucharistic Adoration started in the East. I think the Western assumption (or dormition ) is that all our practices, if they cannot be traced back to the west in antiquity, must have started in the East somewhere.

The Italian Basilians used the Latin Lit. and only really used the Byzantine liturgy as something they did now and again wearing latin vestments and using Latin chalices etc. Grottaferrata only abandoned their OSB habits in the early 20th century around the same time they gave up all their Latin parishes. They were using the same constitutions as the OSBs of the Cassinese Congregation as well. They did not own Byzantine chalices etc until the 1960s when students sent to Greece brought them back. I watched one of their priests celebrate the byzantine lit at a Latin altar up against the wall one morning in a side chapel. The only difference today is he was wearing those Greek vestments with the very long fronts. The only vestments in their museum are fiddle backs. The altars in all the chapels in the monastery itself although they are not up against the wall anymore are too close to allow anyone to walk behind them. All the Byzantine art in the monastery is realy recent there are only a few paintings that are old, the bulk of it all is probably only at the most 100 yrs old. They are very much a recent creation in the Byzantine sense. They uses precut bread from a french loaf for Liturgy. They give Communion the Melchite way and they have "Low Mass". I had the distict impression who ever was overseaing their re discovery of their Byzantine origins died during the process and they have been sort of left there waiting for further instructions. Very nice monks and very hospitable but not doing well for some years with vocations. Sadly they have been stung by taking in Malabar Indians in the past thinking that was the way to go.

So there is every chance the miracle was ina Latin Rite Lit.

Dear Dr. Eric you said:

"Basil is said to have divided the
Eucharistic Bread into three parts when he celebrated Mass in the monastery. One part he consumed, the second part he gave to the
monks, and the third he placed in a golden dove suspended over the altar."

I say:

Every now and then, God gives me a little gift, (not that I'm so holy). Well one day in Church, I felt I saw something glowing flying from the altar, heading towards the right side of the church. That is the right side from the altar. Well as the vision formed in my mind, I realized that it looked like a 'glowing' dove. I then recalled that when I was young, Greek mothers would tell their children when they approached the chalice, that they are going to take the Golden bird.

Well it seems that this is something that has been forgotten by many, so I thank you for letting me know about the 'Golden bird' and that I am not cracking up.

Zenovia

People today have forgotten that for a period of about 300 years (from around 550 to 850 AD) all the southern part of Italy was not under the dominion of the Pope but of the Patriarch in Constantinople since it was ruled directly by the Byzantine Empire.

In point of fact the Byzantines had come to Italy to protect it and to protect Christianity from the ravages of the Ostrogoths.

I suppose that Lanciano is the oldest documented eucharistic miracle in the world within the Church.

It took place in southern Italy sometime in the year 700 and in a Greek church under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople.

As history developed, the Normans replaced Byzantine rule in southern Italy. The Greek Patriarchate lost its authority and it came under the control of the Pope.

So the miracle is now preserved and treasured by the Roman Catholic Church even though it started in the Greek Church.

Dear Father Ambrose,

Bless!

Thank you so much for your valuable and interesting contributions here!

Kissing your right hand,
In Christ,
Alice, Moderator