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Mar 25th, 2025
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Joined: Dec 2005
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Come on, Bill !! Just because I - and others - gave our rather emphatic opinions on the NO doesn't mean you should leave. For cryin' out loud, you're our brother in Christ, friend !!
Consider, too, that the article to which you posted a link seemed to me to have had a subtle anti-TLM bias. This was particularly apparent when the small minority of TLM adherants was alluded, too. Hey, maybe that minority wouldn't be as small as it is if the bishops would do what the Holy Father urged them to do 20 years ago and grant greater access to the TLM in their dioceses. Many anti-TLM bishops say to offer the TLM would engender confusion, etc. among the faithful, which I consider pure hogwash. The author also quoted the Council of Trent re: the "adaptability of the sacraments" while failing to mention St. Pius V's promulgation of the "Tridentine" Mass for all time. From what he had to say about it, St. Pius V certainly didn't seem to consider the Mass to be easily changeable.
Bill, I think it's wonderful if your parish has a lovingly, reverently celebrated NO Mass, but you also have to consider that others may not be so fortunate as you are.
NEMO
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I am very fond of Bill, and through the years, he has been one of our most inspirational posters. He has a great desire to see Christ's church reunited, and I bow in respect to him for this. I too, hope that he doesn't leave us. I would like to ask all posters to use the moderater alert buttons or to p.m. me and/or the other moderators and adminstrators if they are offended by someone, or if they think that the tone of a thread has become uncharitable. We value all our posters here, and believe me, we will go out on a limb to try to diffuse problems (perceived or actual) before they get to the point that posters start leaving because of them. Sometimes just expressing oneself (aka: getting it off one's chest) to a moderator privately may be enough to diffuse a potential problem. We all have good days and bad days in our lives, and I have found that it is the cloud of those bad days that often veil how we read what others have written. So, let's all try to be a little less sensitive about other's opinions, but at the same time, let's also try to be a little more sensitive to other's feelings. Thanks!  In Christ, Alice
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One last quick comment in this thread now after regaining my sanity...both the East & West have some sort of divisive issues...calendar, nationalism, ethnicity, old vs new liturgy etc...so I will do my best to refrain from negative comments related to liturgical & devotional practices by whomever. Though I see alot of prayers for repentance of my private thoughts  PAX james
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Bill from Pgh Member
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To All, I would sincerely like to apologize for my little tirade yesterday.  Eli's advice to stay the course and Alice's kind words are the reasons I am writing this right now. Needless to say I take my faith seriously. If ANYONE took, or would take, the time to check out the TCR website www.tcrnews2.com [ tcrnews2.com] that I linked to, and read anything there, as I suggested Highlander do, they would know where I am coming from. I am Roman Catholic, I believe in my church; bumps, bruises, scars and all. I will not apologize for that, and my most fervent prayer is that one day by the grace of God we will be reunited with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. Dear NEMO, I am not, nor have I ever been, anti-TLM. I attended it as a young child for crying out loud! Please re-read the article without predjudice. Re-read the header! The single article, and the TCR website, does nothing but promote the TLM, while recognizing the place of the Novus Ordo ( like Anhelyna, I too don't like that term ). If that's not good enough, I really have nothing else to say here. Once again, www.tcrnews2.com. [ tcrnews2.com.] It's as Catholic as the Pope! In Christ, Bill PS - I just might post again someday.
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Dear Bill, I stand corrected re: the content of the TCR article to which you linked. Please accept my sincere apology for my bullheadedness. However, I do stand by my last statement. I have been witness myself to many abuses in the NO. And I do beg to differ with those who say that the issue of the NO being an ecumenical obstacle vis-a-vis the Orthodox is nothing but a red herring offered up by the RC traditionalists. It's not so much about the NO as it is the attitude of so much of the RC hierarchy toward the TLM. Seems to me the Orthodox look at this and say to themselves "why would I as an Orthodox want to be part of a Church that shows so little concern - and at times outright contempt - for it's own liturgical tradition?" In any event, Bill, please do stay and keep us company  As I said before, we're all brothers and sisters in OLGS Jesus Christ!! NEMO
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It's not so much about the NO as it is the attitude of so much of the RC hierarchy toward the TLM. Seems to me the Orthodox look at this and say to themselves "why would I as an Orthodox want to be part of a Church that shows so little concern - and at times outright contempt - for it's own liturgical tradition?" Nemo, I agree with you that this is perhaps the valuable subtext implicit in the article that gave rise to this thread. I do not believe that, from an Orthodox perspective, a return to the TLM would be necessary in preparation for any re-union. A reform of the reform, a notion which according to some is being contemplated by Benedict VI, would suffice in bringing the West back to liturgical orthopraxis.
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Originally posted by byzanTN: I spent 4 years of my time helping the traditional RCs here circulate petitions, collect them, and present them to the local RC bishop so they could have the Traditional Mass. Why? I am a Byzantine and made it clear to the RC chancery that I had no legal standing to ask for that mass. However, the chancellor understood that these folks did not feel at home in the local churches, so he was OK with me helping out some friends, since I knew how to do the required paperwork. They now have the Traditional Latin Mass both locally and also in Chattanooga. The Church seems to accomodate nearly everyone else, so I thought the Trads should have some options, too. For those who can't tolerate the Novus Ordo, there is a legal way to petition for the Traditional Mass. However, I never failed to mention the merits of the East. But as to the original topic, I don't think the Novus Ordo is a barrier to ecumenism with orthodoxy. The problems are more differences in interpreting theology and in church governance. what you did for the Latins is outstanding, dude! I know more than a few Latins who are pleased with the Traditional Latin Mass in this Latin Diocese. I should also like to point out that Bishop Kurtz (many years) is to be praised and thanked for more than just permitting the Latins to have their Latin Mass (as well as permitting the Ruthenians to worship in his diocese); he (and you, with your four years of help in this matter) may have saved countless souls from straying over to the schismatics in their search for that which is precious to them. Much Love, Jonn
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Originally posted by Mark of Ephesus: It's not so much about the NO as it is the attitude of so much of the RC hierarchy toward the TLM. Seems to me the Orthodox look at this and say to themselves "why would I as an Orthodox want to be part of a Church that shows so little concern - and at times outright contempt - for it's own liturgical tradition?"
I agree with you that this is perhaps the valuable subtext implicit in the article that gave rise to this thread. I do not believe that, from an Orthodox perspective, a return to the TLM would be necessary in preparation for any re-union. A reform of the reform, a notion which according to some is being contemplated by Benedict VI, would suffice in bringing the West back to liturgical orthopraxis. One does not reform liturgy in order to reform people. One reforms one's thinking, and acting and being. Good,right and holy liturgy follows from good, right and holy souls. The best of liturgies are open to corruption. Eli
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Posted by Bill:
"I am Roman Catholic, I believe in my church; bumps, bruises, scars and all. I will not apologize for that, and my most fervent prayer is that one day by the grace of God we will be reunited with our Orthodox brothers and sisters."
AMEN!
I'm a Latin Catholic and see Christ, His Presence and His Body in the Liturgies of my Church. I see Him in the Liturgies of the other Chruches, Catholic and Orthodox.
I like to think that when the reunion happens we will all look at eachother and see in the bumps and bruises and scars and all the Beauty of the Bruises and Scars and Bumps of the Body of Christ!
I wonder when we will all be able to focus on the Beauty that is real in all of our liturgies. Until then I guess that Latin Catholics will address the kinds of things that are in this thread. They are not new.
It is a spiritual work of mercy to share the beauteous wonders of the many faceted house of Our Father. After all, this site affords an opportunity for members all of His Churches to come to appreciate eachother and their ways.
Doesn't it?
Steve
If you do a search of the archives, I think you'll find that this topic has been covered many times before.
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Dear Bill, Steve (whom we all hold INAWE) is right! And please just don't up and leave at the first sign of difficulty on this forum - I just hate it when people do that . . . . There are abuses to be found in all liturgies. In my parish, there are those who think that any Byzantine Catholic Liturgy that lasts more than half an hour is being abusive . . . to them and their free time. Personally, if they have somewhere else to go or be, they should leave asap! Fr. Hopko's presentation on what Catholics have to do etc. included what I personally felt was a topic that was none of his business - the liturgy of the Roman Church. No one can tell the Roman Church what to do with its own internal liturgical matters. As Charles said, the theological points of disagreement are the ones that need to be tackled in the first instance. What Fr. Hopko's presentation did do is to make an interesting point of comparison. If we EC's are always going on about how the Latin Church imposes what is in reality the Latin spiritual patrimony on the East, does Fr. Hopko's points on the Latin liturgy represent a case where an Orthodox Christian seeks to impose what is the Eastern Christian patrimony on the West? However, there was once a time when there was a NO Mass at the Martyrs' Shrine in Midland and the Director invited me to stay (during World Youth Day 2002 when we were hosting the Papal entourage at the fort across the street). They had a bishop with new converts and they were playing "Christian rock" to guitars etc. Forgive me, but that rock music (especially in that hallowed place of my childhood years) made me so sick to my stomach that I was praying for strength to stay to the end so as not to offend my friend, the Fr. Director. It was really touch and go for a while . . . Perhaps that was "Rockus Ordo?" As long as you Latins don't discard the Rosary (which I know you won't), I'll keep coming! You know I'm a real fanatic about the Rosary! It's the one Latin practice that I am always imposing on my Eastern Christian friends (even on my Protestant spiritual victims). To bead or not to bead - there should be no question! Alex
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I've searched a day and a half for this article...I have much admiration for + Fr. Schmemann...
The Mass: The Appearance on Earth of the Eternal
From The Journals of Father Alexander Schmemann (+1983):
"Wednesday, October 3, 1979
The Pope of Rome is in New York. We watched him on television in Yankee Stadium. A mixed impression. On one hand, an unquestionably good man, and full of light. Wonderful smile. Very genuine�a man of God. But, on the other hand, there are some 'buts'!
First of all, the Mass itself. The first impression is how liturgically impoverished the Catholic Church has become. In 1965, I watched the service performed by Pope Paul VI in the same Yankee Stadium. Despite everything, it was the presence, the appearance on earth of the eternal, the 'super earthly.' Whereas yesterday, I had the feeling that the main thing was the 'message.' This message is, again and again, 'peace and justice,' 'human family,' 'social work,' etc.
An opportunity was given, a fantastic chance to tell millions and millions of people about God, to reveal to them that more than anything else they need God! But here, on the contrary, the whole goal, it seemed, consisted in proving that the Church also can speak the jargon of the United Nations.
All the symbols point the same way: the reading of the Scriptures by some lay people with bright ties, etc. And a horrible translation: I never suspected that a translation could be a heresy: Grace�'abiding love'!
Does one have to serve Mass in Yankee Stadium? But if it's possible and needed, shouldn't the Mass be, so to say, 'super earthly,' separated from the secular world, in order to show in the world�the Kingdom of God?" ... courtesy of Vultus Christi Blog
james
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Jakub (James),
I share Fr. Schmemann's concerns about the modern Roman liturgy. Thank you for posting the quotation.
God bless,
Todd
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Yes, thanks indeed Jakub. Fr. Schmemann was one of the official observers at VII for the Orthodox and had many good things to say about the Council, and in particular Sacrosanctum Concilium. He certainly was an advocate of vernacular liturgy. Perhaps after that entry he may have asked himself (as did many Catholics) "what happened to Sacrosanctum Concilium?
Re-reading the posts of the thread, some good points were made, and I greatly respect and admire Bishop Rifan. But one nagging thing that seems essential to me is this: if the current Roman Liturgy were indeed theologically deficient, somehow fundamentally lacking in sacramental worship, no doubt it would be on the table for the joint Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.
To date not once has any mention been made in any of the sessions.
FDD
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Re-reading the posts of the thread, some good points were made, and I greatly respect and admire Bishop Rifan. But one nagging thing that seems essential to me is this: if the current Roman Liturgy were indeed theologically deficient, somehow fundamentally lacking in sacramental worship, no doubt it would be on the table for the joint Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.
To date not once has any mention been made in any of the sessions.
FDD There are many things which would have to be settled before inter-communion could be established. I belive the principal reason why the issue of the current Roman liturgy has not been raised is that we are still very, very, ealy in these discussions.
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I belive the principal reason why the issue of the current Roman liturgy has not been raised is that we are still very, very, ealy in these discussions. Mark, I think quite the opposite. Without a genuine and accepted sacramental basis or acceptance of sacramental worship as "true" and "valid", one simply cannot advance further, especially to issues of primacy and potential reunification. I would think any sacramental deficiency would by its essential nature to further dialogue have to be discussed first and foremost. The complete lack of discussion of this topic is itself quite remarkable. FDD
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