www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Why BC's and RC's don't always find common ground

Zoe,

I rejoice over your experience. Given what you enjoy it's not surprising that you would find our experience unbelievable. I'm glad to read that their are still such parishes and in certain areas they are probably more the rule than the exception. Someday we will be moving South, the Lord willing, and we also will enjoy such parishes. From time to time I will check out Churches like Holy Cross, recommended by Lawrence, and St. John Cantius. For us they are oases in a dry land.

If you get up to the Chicago area I invite you to the Annunciation BC Church.

Again, I'm so very grateful to God that you have the Church life that you have.

Dan Lauffer

Dan:

Forgive me but I, personally, see that you are painting the RC with a broad brush.

Are you talking about the Diocese of Joliet or about the Archdiocese of Chicago, or BOTH?

There are thousands of parishes in the Archdiocese of Chicago so I think you have not visited a majority of them.

In the Diocese of Joliet (which encompasses the Counties of DuPage, Ford, Grundy, Iroquois, Kankakee, Kendall, & Will), on the other hand, there are listed 133 Roman Catholic parishes. Have you attended Mass in all of them?

Or, in the City of Joliet proper, there are listed 15 Roman Catholic parishes in all. Please try attending Mass in these 15 parishes, and then in the other 118 parishes of the Diocese, and do tell us what you think:

1. Cath. of St. Raymond Nonnatus, 604 N. Raynor;
2. Holy Cross, 901 Elizabeth;
3. Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, 407 E. Irving;
4. Sacred Heart, 337 S. Ottawa;
5. Sts. Cyril & Methodius, 704 Landau;
6. St. Anthony, 100 N. Scott;
7. St. Bernard, 1313 Ridgewood;
8. St. John the Baptist, 404 N. Hickory;
9. St. Joseph, 416 N. Chicago;
10. St. Jude, 2212 McDonough;
11. St. Mary Magdalene, 127 S. Briggs;
12. St. Mary Nativity, 706 N. Broadway;
13. St. Patrick, 710 W. Marion;
14. St. Paul the Apostle, 18 Woodham; and
15. St. Thaddeus, 501 Columbia.

Come across into the Archdiocese of Chicago when you are done!

Amado

Amado,

Maybe you and I can go together and visit not only all of the Churches of both diocese but also all of the Eastern Catholic Churches as well.

Dan Lauffer

I do not doubt your experiecnes, Dan.

That said, I have to echo Zoe. I live in west Georgia, an area with Catholics making up no more than, I would guess, 0.8% or 1.0% of the population (we haven't had a ton of Hispanic in-growth yet, and some of the local Mexicans are now Fundies anyway). There are only three parishes within 35 minutes of here; I've been to two. At both of these, the Mass is about an hour and five minutes. The tabernacles are front and center. There are statues, the Eternal Flame, Stations of the Cross, regular Rosaries, holy water fonts, kneelers, and a very family-oriented environment. Both parishes I'm sure do not exceed
40 families. One priest is 32 years old. He's from around here, he's Anglo-American, graduated from Georgia Tech, seems orthodox. The other is no more than 35 and is Indian. He seems ultra-orthodox and takes his time with everything.

Maybe it's a Southern thing? Who knows? All I know is that I don't believe there is ONE parish in the entire Archdiocese of Atlanta that fits the description of anything you've described, thanks be to God.

Logos Teen

I echo Logos Teen's perspective. Attending yet another CDC meeting in Atlanta two years ago, I attended Mass at a church in downtown Atlanta near Peachtree Street and the hotels.

While I'm NOT a fan of the 'church as community' form of liturgy (the "handshake of peace" strikes me as strange and makes me very uncomfortable), I must admit that the Litury was wonderful and very prayerful. And, in the vestibule, there were several large barrels with signs asking people to donate food to both those in need as well as to hospices caring for people with AIDS and cancer. I wished I had had bags-ful of groceries to give because I knew that the members of this parish weren't just "Sunday go to meetin'" Christians. So, for me, I have most wonderful memories of the people of the Archdiocese of Atlanta. Just plain good folks.

Blessings!

And I echoe Zoe, Amado, Teen, and Dr. John. Almost every liturgy that I've attended in parishes large and small in many Archdioceses and dioceses has been reverently celebrated and filled with the working of the Spirit. I've attended many many Masses over my lifetime.

Sometimes the building is too ornate or plain for my liking; sometimes the music can be less than aesthetically pleasing for my taste; and sometimes the sermon could use some more work. The important stuff, the work of the people goes on in a repectful and prayerful manner.

That hasn't changed from the many years that I participated in the "Tridentine" Mass singing Gregorian Chant. Thank God for that. In fact, the level of participation is greatly enhanced in the current Liturgy, in my experience.

I've worshipped in the pre-Vatican II Church and in the Post-Vatican II Church for roughly equal portions of my life. I have a healthy respect for all forms of Liturgies that are used in our Church.

There have always been abuses. There will always be abuses. They need to be addressed as they occur. They do not happen in most of our Liturgies more or less than they do in the other Churches in our Communion, from what I've heard here.

But, the Liturgy is not about abuses. It is about enabling us to participate in offering the saving action of Jesus' sacrifice to the Father through the Spirit as members of His Body. It is about taking that Liturgical action into the world in which we live to serve our brothers and sisters.

That's why the focus on the negative coming up here over and over has always puzzled me. That's the caricature of the Latin church and its worship that I see here. It's not a new focus. In fact, if I remember correctly, it's been a work in progress for quite some time.

There's so much beauty and spiritual energy and dignity in most of the Liturgies celebrated in the parishes and convents and monasteries of the Latin Church world wide.

Like a caricature that takes a beautiful person's feature and emphasizes a minor defect almost to the point of hyperbole; some posters take what admitedly are some problems that we experience in our Church and exaggerate them and repeat them over and over until what the Latin Church and its Liturgy are about kind of get lost in the presentation.

If the only things I knew about the Liturgy in the Latin Chruch came from some of the postings here, I'd think that Rome was leading people away from God or at best blocking their road to Him.

That sounds like a very fundamentalist approach to what Rome is about. It surprises me to hear it from fellow Catholics whether Latin or members of other Churches in our Communion.

Actually, the Liturgy was renewed, we believe by the Spirit working through the Council and our bishops, to do exactly the opposite. From my experience and the experience of most Latin Catholics whom I know, it is doing what it was intended to do. The Roman Church keeps on growing.

If our liturgy is a reason why BCs and RCs don't always find common ground, I don't think that the case has been made here that shows how or why. In my opinion, it will be a hard case to make. It is not the Byzantine Liturgy, but in basics, they are alike in my experience.

We treasure our Liturgy just as much as posters from other Churches treasure theirs. I guess that's why caricatures of our Liturgy and our Church are so disturbing.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve

Gee, Steve, were you from Hollywood, CA instead of Hollywood, FL, I'd suggest you run for governor on the Byzantine slate! Of course, Celine Dion, of the Melkite Party, would run as Minister of Arts, Music and Fashion. Charles Bronson, of the Ukrainian Party, would run as Minister of Law Enforcement. Olympia Dukakis, of the Hellenic Party, would run as head of Ministry of Manners. Marlo Thomas, of the Maronite Party, would run as Minister of Health and Child Welfare.

Despite the lunacy of the above "Fantasy Team", the fact remains that Born-Easterns can take the easy path of going RC or being 'Dox or can choose to remain in the community proclaiming a unique identity as allied with both Rome and Constantinople. It is a peculiar situation and one that is oftentimes fraught with either hostility from either side, or with overwhelming 'concern' from either side that is smothering and life-threatening.

Fortunately, the Eastern personality is one that allows for all sorts of pressures and conflicts - it's part of the heritage. But it does not abjure one's responsiblity to man the fortress-walls to ensure one's survival against whomever comes to "help" - either one way or the other.

Eastern Catholics have a unique vocation to follow Christ's command to "love one's neighbor" and to love and appreciate all of them, but also the necessity of not committing ecclesiastical suicide for the sake of expediency. It's a tough row to hoe.

Blessings!

While hearing criticism of abuses in the Roman Rite I recall stories from my deacon that in some Byzantine parishes the Office of the Prothesis consists of opening a Tupperware bowl and dumping the precut fragments of the Lamb on the diskos without a single prayer being said.
Arvid

I believe I read somewhere that Olympia Dukakis has found the Goddess somewhere in her travels...

Anton

Dr. John posted:

"Gee, Steve, were you from Hollywood, CA instead of Hollywood, FL, I'd suggest you run for governor on the Byzantine slate! Of course, Celine Dion, of the Melkite Party, would run as Minister of Arts, Music and Fashion. Charles Bronson, of the Ukrainian Party, would run as Minister of Law Enforcement. Olympia Dukakis, of the Hellenic Party, would run as head of Ministry of Manners. Marlo Thomas, of the Maronite Party, would run as Minister of Health and Child Welfare."


AAHHHMMMM, Is this mike on?

I am deeply honored by the nomination, but I cannot, repeat cannot accept it!

This is not a trial balloon! MMMM where is that list of rich supporters, again? I don't have any rich supporters?

Can I borrow some?

Seriously, though, I think that Dr. John makes a clear presentation of the vocation of Eastern Catholics as I've learned of it here.

I don't think that I've seen it said better than this anywhere:

"Eastern Catholics have a unique vocation to follow Christ's command to "love one's neighbor" and to love and appreciate all of them, but also the necessity of not committing ecclesiastical suicide for the sake of expediency. It's a tough row to hoe."

There are others hoeing, too.

Steve

ZT,
which diocese are you in, Raleigh or Charlotte? I ask because after twenty years here in NC I have yet to find a parish that is even allowed to be traditional...in our last RC parish in Hope Mills, our pastor was a tad conservative, but the laity in charge leaned a bit to the left...I was considered strange and old fashioned because I wouldn't do Cursillo, didn't hold hands during the Lord's Prayer and forget what was said about my family because we all received on the tounge. Then we got to Chapel Hill and I almost gave up altogether...thank God we knew of a Byzantine Parish close by and after over a year of going to church there and learning all we can about Byzantine spirituality, we feel like we are finally home.

I am curious though about what diocese your parish is in...I heard that the Raleigh bishop is retiring soon, so hopefully this bishop-elect you speak of is his replacement.

I have to say that as someone who was an RC for over forty years and is now BC, there is a certain element of Protestanization within the RC. This isn't being done BY the people in the pews, but TO the people in the pews, by those who have hijacked the liturgical and building processes with the battle cry of "Spirit of VCII". Most of the time the people in the pews and even some of the priests have been left standing in confusion wondering what is going to happen next. Fortunately, as was predicted about a decade ago, there is a generation of RC's coming up who are taking back their parishes and VCII and the trends seem to be slowing down and in some places reversing. Maybe there will come a time when both lungs will finally be able to find a common ground...when the liturgy of the West goes back to being God-centered the way the Liturgy of the East is.

Ladyhawke,

You and I have apparently experienced precisely the same things. Let us pray for our RC friends that reverence will once again be the hallmark of all of their Churches.

Dan Lauffer

Dan,

I join you in your prayer!

Lord, grant that true reverence be the hall mark of all of the Churches which make up the Churches of the Catholic Communion.

Guide us as we work to offer sacrifice from the rising to the setting of the sun in a manner that You deserve. May our worship show our love for You and for each other as you have commanded.

Bless the common servant-leader whom You have given to us, John Paul II. Bless those whom You have set as bishops among us. May they be constant in their building up of Christ's Body and lead us to You in truth and holiness.

May we be loving in our speach to each other and caring in what we say about each other. May Your Spirit guide us to build each other up in the Faith.

May it always be said about us, see how they love one another.

Amen!

Hi. Ladyhawke! I'm in the Diocese of Charlotte, which is pretty solid and conservative. All our young seminarians and priests are orthodox -- every one of 'em.

I have heard horror stories galore about the Diocese of Raleigh!!! You poor kid! I hope your bishop is retiring soon. You can bet dollars to doughnuts that the Holy Father will replace him with a conservative. That's been a trend for a while...and in the wake of the clergy sex-abuse scandal, the trend is accelerating. The Vatican has definitely figured out that liberalism is at the core of our crisis.

I assume you're a member of Ss. Cyril & Methodius? Please beg Father Rohrer to establish a mission here in Winston-Salem! We have no Eastern presence except the local G.O. church...and a whole bunch of country-style family restaurants that serve souvlaki along with the ham and grits!

Blessings,

ZT