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Dear Friends,

We read about the bit of nastiness that occurred between the Greek and Armenian Orthodox patriarchs in Jerusalem over the Holy Fire.

It seems to me there has been a history of dislike of Armenians with some of our cultures.

St Cosmas Aitolos, I believe, dissuaded the Greeks from ever even speaking Armenian words at home.

My question has to do with the sources of this dislike.

Was it because the Armenians were outside the Orthodox Byzantine Church and so were disliked as "heretics?"

Was it a combination of elements?

Alex

Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that Armenians considered the Turkish Muslims to be liberators, who saved them from Byzantine persecution?

Why is it that Armenians served in the Turkish army while--for the most part--Greeks did not? (However, Greeks were often the admirals of the Ottoman fleet.)

At Gallipoli, many of the "Turkish" troops who stood solidly against the attacks of the French and British onslaught were actually Armenians, who served without any moral qualms alongside their Turkish Muslim Ottoman comrades.

Why is it that many Armenians--not just the small number of Armenian Muslims--had such a strong identity as Ottomans, while many of their same Armenian brethren, had nothing but comtempt for everything Ottoman and engaged in the wholesale slaughter of Turks in eastern Anatolia? (I will provide the historical data if you desire. There is more to the horrendous slaughter of Armenians in Turkey than just the Armenian perspective: many Turkish civilians were also slaughtered by Armenians.)


Greek Orthodox and Assyrian Christians took advantage of the Armenian genocide by buying Armenian land and property at rock bottom prices as the Armenians were forced into exile; Greeks truly exploited their fellow Christians in their time of sorrow and suffering. Perhaps the Armenians have not forgotten how they were betrayed by their fellow Christians?

Perhaps the Greeks cannot forgive the Armenians for being strong supporters of the Ottoman Empire for centuries?

Certainly, these are fascinating facts for those of us who are the descendents of any of those peoples--Muslim, Jewish, or Christian--who comprised the multi-ethnic and religious tapestry of the Ottoman Empire, to contemplate.

In the Name of Allah al-Ghafoor.

Salaam,

Abdur

[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: traveler ]

Dear Abdur,

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim!

Well, this would certainly dis me off, to be sure!

But dislike for the Armenians goes back to the Kyivan Caves Patericon where a certain monk got made because an Armenian had crossed the threshold of his cell and this before Easter!

Fascinating stuff, your post.

How are you doing today?

Alex

I'm having 'old geezer' fun while surrounded by a flock of inquisitve 'yungins. How about you?

Salaam,

Abdur

Dear Abdur,

I have that experience most times I'm on this Forum!

Forgive me, er, everyone. . .

Salaam!

Alex

Armenians suffered a lot of persecutions by the Turks, a genocide, as well as the Kurds and the Greeks.

I know that a lot of Armenians serve in the Israeli army, and also Arab Christians (melkites), I don't understand why.

You are correct about the Armenians. We all know of their terrible suffering.

But the Armenians are also guilty of slaughtering thousands of Turkish Muslim non-combatants.

Maybe the Christian moral code is different, but for us--those of us who know both sides of the horrendous tale and practice a certain type of Islam--both sides must take responsibility for the butchery of innocent non-combatants.

Many of the loyalties--between Arab Muslims and Christians and Israeli Jews--are personal, tribal, and rooted in family ties.

Not all Palestinian Muslims look forward to living under the heel of a Palestinian regime that they believe will be just as corrupt and authoritarian as the Arab regimes which predominate in the Middle East. In other words: In a toss-up between living under the Israelis or the PLO, it becomes a matter of choosing between the best of the bad!


Perhaps the Melkites and Armenians feel the same?

Salaam,

Abdur

Glory to Jesus Christ/Slava Isusu Hristu!

The Armenian presence outside the Byzantine Church promoted dislike and mistrust. The Armenians did not accept Chalcedon. Post-451 efforts at reconciliation did not work. This put the Armenians outside the uniformity and unity of the imperial church.

Nomikos Vaporis' "Witnesses For Christ" (SVS Press) had a couple of references to Armenians setting up Orthodox Christians for martyrdom. I have seen "Last Judgement" paintings (in Romania or Bulgaria) that place the Armenians in the condemned category, along with the Tatars, and other public enemies of the day. I've read a couple of histories disclosed the Armenians preferred Muslim to Byzantine rule. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of that argument.

The separate Armenian millet from the Orthodox could also argue for animosity between the two communities. After all, an Armenian Catholic millet grew out of Armenian Apostolic-Armenian Catholic disputes.

God bless all of you!

Christiopher
(Armenian Catholic)

That was a "typo." Of course I can spell my name: Christopher

I read somewhere (I think in an Amnesty International journal) that the Turkish persecution of Armenians was one of the longest-duration genocide and ethnic persecutions in history.

St. Gregory the Illuminator pray for us!

Christopher,

Welcome! The Armenian people have a brave and courageous history.

I always understood that the relations between Armenian Catholics and the Armenian Apostolic are much warmer than between the Eastern Orthodox and the Byzantine Catholics. Is that so?

Axios

Dear Friend,

Welcome here and we hope to learn from you about the Armenian Catholic Church!

(Has the Pope beatified an Armenian Catholic recently?)

How would you characterize the current relationship between Armenian Catholics and Orthodox? The Mekhitarists?

Alex

Christiopher,

I can certainly understand when you say the Armenians preferred Muslim rule to Roman rule.

I know the Romans preferred Muslim rule to Latin rule.

And I know the American Indians just like a good casino.

Dear OOD,

And I understand the Greeks just love a good festival, with lots of food, dancing and ouzo!

And where else will you find men with shorter skirts than those worn by the women?

Alex

And if they wish to wear skirts then headscarves should also be compulsory.

Despite all that has been written so far, it is interesting to note that Greece and Armenia have a mutual protection treaty against Turkey.

Either things are on the mend or this is a much more complex issue.

And by the way, the Turks massacred countless Greeks in countless cities (Smyrna, Chios, ect.) so I doubt the Armenian massacre was just some retaliatory thing, it seems Turkeys genocidal behavior is enough to make Hitler jealous.

And nothing has changed, there are fewer than 10,000 Greeks in Constantinople and of the 500+ Churches in Northern Cyprus, most have been destroyed or converted into mosques while virtually all of the mosques in Greek Cyprus remain.

On the other hand, all of the ancient Churches and monoasteries in Kosovo survived under the Ottomans untouched only to be virtually wiped out under NATO "Peacekeeping".