The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Jayce, Fr. Abraham, AnonymousMan115, violet7488, HopefulOlivia
6,182 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 724 guests, and 113 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,530
Posts417,671
Members6,182
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 15
L
Junior Member
Junior Member
L Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 15
Renaissance art introduced secular artistic innovations into the traditional Christian iconography such as 3D perspective, natural light, shadow and perhaps most significantly its sensual over tone. A lot of Western religious art from the Renaissance period is almost indistinguishable from the secular art of the time other than by its religious theme.

While the appropriation of pagan elements into early Christian art was traditionally regarded as a 'Christianisation' of pagan art (e.g. the traditional pagan motif of the shepherd and his flock was easily propagated by Christians to express Christ the Good Shepherd), Orthodox art historians regard the appropriation of secular artistic elements during the Renaissance as a "paganisation of Christian art', an "obscuration' of the traditional transcendental nature of the Byzantine icon that was achieved in particular through the dissimulation of carnal elements that were later emphasized by Renaissance painters such as Raphael (see Quenot quote below). The traditional reversal of ways of seeing in the traditional icon, e.g. reverse perspective, and the subjection of the iconographer to artistic canons are generally understood by Orthodox theologians of the icon as a challenge to the fallen world in much the same way that the preaching of the Gospel (e.g. the Beatitudes) point in a direction opposite to the ways of the fallen world.

How can one defend the revolutionary upheaval in Catholic art during the Renaissance and the decline in the presence of the icon in Catholic churches? Leonid Ouspensky in The Theology of the Icon even describes the Renaissance as 'blasphemous', contradicting the 7th Ecumenical Council that precisely defined the exact role of the icon.

I would be very grateful for some help please!!
My thesis touches upon the aforementioned and I have not found any comprehensive defense of Renaissance art with reference to Orthodox criticism.

Thanks- Leo

Quote
Michael Quenot in The icon: Window on the Kingdom (1996, p. 78) argues that the "crooked heads, cross-eyes, twisted bodies and bulging bosoms (in Renaissance art), express more the disintegrated state of modern man than his thirst for a reality beyond the material world'.

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Former
Moderator
Former
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
There are several rather Western holy pictures that many of us are VERY attached to. I have carried a small picture of Christ blessing the little children in my wallet now for over 50 years...and wouldn't give it up for anyone. Also popular among Russians/Belarusians/Ukrainians is the picture of 'Our Blessed Lord in the garden of Olives' on the night before He gave Himself up for us and our salvation. Even today in some of the most 'strict' Slavic Orthodox churches, you will find this picture somewhere in the church. I also love the picture of 'Christ Crucified' by Diego Velazquez de Silva. I remember the first time I saw it at the Prado in Madrid, I wept tears of sorrow for my own sins. Religious art doesn't get better than that!

I don't think personally that Western religious art has to be 'defended'---if it aids a person deepen his relationship with the Lord...then it's good. The principle theologically is that ALL art (icons and everything else) are AIDS to prayer and hence our relationship with God...if they are anything else, they are 'idols' even icons in the best and strictest style.

In His great mercy,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 124
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 124
Dear Leao,
The late Gerard Serafin�s website, "A Catholic Page for Lovers" [praiseofglory.com] , has a section called "The Bridegroom Pages" [praiseofglory.com] that may be helpful. While first touching on the subject of the priesthood, these pages deal mainly with the depiction of Christ in Rennaisance art. Mr. Serafin mentions several writers but specifically recommends Leo Steinberg and his book �The Sexuality of Jesus in Renaissance Art and Modern Oblivion� (Pantheon/October Books, NY, 1983).

The Sexuality of Jesus in Renaissance Art and Modern Oblivion [amazon.com]

One of the premises of the book is that the naturalism of Rennaisance art is what makes it fully orthodox because it takes the reality of the Incarnation seriously and follows its implications to their fullest extent.

In the "True God *And* True Man" [praiseofglory.com] section, Mr. Serafin quotes the following passage from Steinberg�s book:
Quote
The Incarnation of the Trinity's Second Person is the centrum of Christian orthodoxy. But we are taught that the godhead in Christ, while he dwelled on earth, was effectively hidden -- insufficiently manifest for the Devil to recognize, obscured even from Christ's closest disciples (Mark 8:27-30; Matt. 16:13-20), apparent only to a handful of chosen initiates and a few beneficiaries of his miracles
By the testimony of Scripture, the manhood in Christ, though free from ignorance and sin, was otherwise indistinguishable -- not because the protagonist of the Gospels assumed a deceptive disguise (like a godling in pagan fable), but because he took real flesh in a woman's womb and endured it till death.
This much Christendom has professed at all times. Not so Christian art. For when a depictive style aims at the other-worldly; when the stuff of which human bodies are formed is attenuated and subtilized; when Christian representations of Christ, dismayed by the grossness of matter, decline to honor the corporeality God chose to assume -- then, whatever else such art may be after, the down-to-earth flesh of the bodied Word is not confessed.
It is arguable from a stylistic viewpoint -- at least in retrospect and from a Renaissance vantage -- that the hieratic Christs of Byzantine art are better adapted to Gnostic heresies than to a theology of Incarnation; for, to quote Otto Demus again, "The Byzantine image . . always remained a Holy Icon, without any admixture of earthly realism." But for those Western Christians who would revere the Logos in its human presence, it was precisely an "admixture of earthly realism" that was needed to flesh out the icon.
And because Renaissance culture not only advanced an incarnational theology (as the Greek Church had also done), but evolved representational modes adequate to its expression, we may take Renaissance art to be the first and last phase of Christian art that can claim full Christian orthodoxy. Renaissance art -- including the broad movement begun c.1260 -- harnessed the theological impulse and developed the requisite stylistic means to attest the utter carnality of God's humanation in Christ.
Pope John Paul II also briefly mentions the Rennaisance in his �Letter to Artists�. It can be found both here:

Letter to Artists (Gerard Serafin\'s Website) [praiseofglory.com]

And here:

Letter to Artists (Vatican Website) [vatican.va]

Having described his surroundings in the Vatican the Pope writes:
Quote
This extraordinary complex is a remarkably powerful expression of sacred art, rising to heights of imperishable aesthetic and religious excellence. What has characterized sacred art more and more, under the impulse of Humanism and the Renaissance, and then of successive cultural and scientific trends, is a growing interest in everything human, in the world, and in the reality of history. In itself, such a concern is not at all a danger for Christian faith, centred on the mystery of the Incarnation and therefore on God's valuing of the human being. The great artists mentioned above are a demonstration of this. Suffice it to think of the way in which Michelangelo represents the beauty of the human body in his painting and sculpture.
I hope the book and web pages are at least a starting point. Good luck!

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Dear Friends,

There certainly is a Baroque period in Orthodoxy that produced a blending of Western devotions and even Western-inspired saints in the East.

St Seraphim of Sarov had his Western icon of Our Lady, Joy of all Joys, there is the picture of Our Lady "of the Street" honoured as miraculous in Orthodoxy, an image of Our Lady of Mt Carmel in the Orthodox monastery at Horodyschenske in western Ukraine etc.

The paintings of St Isaac's Cathedral in St Petersburg are anything but traditionally "Orthodox."

Sometimes the stern iconography of the East needs to be balanced by the warmer, more human pictorial representations of the West.

And certainly a number of Orthodox have felt that way, including St Dmitri of Rostov et al.

I may be assuming too much, but it sounds like you perhaps should have titled your thread to say "Orthodox converts?" wink

Alex

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
Yes, as Alex stated the Baroque influence was deep indeed, from Rastrelli's architecture to the painting styles being discussed. This Western-influenced iconographic style is very popular to this day in Eastern Europe amongst both Catholics and Orthodox.

Several of the Tsars and Tsarinas were also very partial to this more modern and Western iconographic style, hence its common name of "Imperial Style". If you look in the current Sofrino catalog (which is from the patriarchal workshops of the Russian Orthodox Church) you will see many of these icon reproductions which are very popular to this day.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
...
Sometimes the stern iconography of the East needs to be balanced by the warmer, more human pictorial representations of the West.
...
Alex
Christ is born!

Alex,

Hope your holidays have gone well.

Would you care to elaborate on the quoted statement? It may just be the vostochnyk in me speaking, but I find that the 'more human' representations of the West take away from what an icon is supposed to be - a 'representation' rather than a 're-creation'.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Dear Andriju,

Let us Glorify Him!

Greek iconography is perhaps the sternest of all iconography - and the icons of Rus', especially the Virgin of Tenderness of Vladimir/Kyiv marked a departure from that tradition.

The "heart-rending" iconographic style of Rus' meshed well with the "spirituality of tears" and the Jesus Prayer.

But somehow the Ukrainian Saints Dmitri Tuptalenko, Sophrony Krystalsky, Paul Koniuskevich, Theophil Leshchynsky, Arseny Matsievich, Peter Mohyla, Ivan Maximovych, and others (I'm certainly no expert on the Kyivan Baroque) found much in Western devotional and artistic expression to be of value and incorporated it into their own traditions - something that went into the Russian church as well.

And what do you mean you are a "vostochnyk?" With Yuschenko, we are all looking West now, or didn't you know? wink

The fact is, the Baroque influence was there and it was accepted for a reason.

I'm just giving my own reason.

You are free to disagree with it, seeing as you are a vostochnyk and all . . . wink

Khrystos Radilsia!

Alex

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 15
L
Junior Member
Junior Member
L Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 15
It has been argued that the traditional analogy between East and West in regards to devotional art is not between icons and paintings, but between icons and statues. Statues in the West serve the same purpose as icons in the East. They are windows to the Divine, aid in the contemplation of the Divine, are kissed and reverenced in exactly the same way as icons etc. What are the qualifications needed for such a statement?

For example, it would be very difficult to have a statue expressing the Transfiguration with everything it consists of - the 6 figures, the Divine light, the mountain etc. Icons are surely much better at expressing Christian dogma comprehensively.

However, I'm more interested in icons & statues as aids to hesychast prayer, i.e. a way of stilling the heart and turning it back towards God. Icons are very good at this as there is an emphasis on stillness (through harmonious line and colour) and the Saints depicted are humbly turned towards Jesus in prayer, especially within the Deisis tier of an Iconostasis, encouraging the beholder of the icon to be drawn into the same poise. Statues appear to be similarly still and capture the humility of the Saint before God. This begs the question for me: Are icons any better or different than statues in their approach to expressing hesychast spirituality?

thanks for your time Leao

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 2
B
Member
Member
B Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 2
Quote
For example, it would be very difficult to have a statue expressing the Transfiguration with everything it consists of - the 6 figures, the Divine light, the mountain etc. Icons are surely much better at expressing Christian dogma comprehensively.
Don't forget the role of stained glass in the West. I have seen an Austrian-made Transfiguration window that expresses Christian dogma quite well. In the church where I play, one can read a great deal of the Gospels in the windows. Those windows are great aids to prayer. I think there is more to this than just a comparison between statues and icons.

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 15
L
Junior Member
Junior Member
L Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 15
Quote
Don't forget the role of stained glass in the West... great aids to prayer. I think there is more to this than just a comparison between statues and icons.
But stained glass is generally positioned quite far from the viewer. Doesn't this create a significant spiritual distance? This is compounded by the fact that the figures in stained glass and for that matter statues often don't look directly at the viewer, unlike in iconography.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Dear Leao,

Ultimately, I think it is what a particular icon or statue "does" to one in terms of inspiring prayer that counts.

For example, when I became "Easternized" and took up the Eastern devotions et al. I was working hard to find the "place of the heart."

One day I came across a picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and as I prayed the Jesus Prayer before it . . . WOW!

It all came together for me and I understood what that devotion was all about!!

I told Fr. Sergius Keleher about this experience and he asked me to write it down and see if the devotion could not be somehow "reconstructed" from an Eastern perspective.

I never did write it down and didn't pursue it further.

I just loved the experience.

Alex

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 2
B
Member
Member
B Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 2
Quote
But stained glass is generally positioned quite far from the viewer. Doesn't this create a significant spiritual distance? This is compounded by the fact that the figures in stained glass and for that matter statues often don't look directly at the viewer, unlike in iconography.
It depends on the placement of the windows. In the large cathedrals, the windows are far away. In parish churches, they are close enough to be devotional aids. As for images looking at the viewer, they can if the viewer is positioned in the right place.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 641
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 641
Hmmm... well, let's see, Our Lord and most of those holy people depicted in icons existed in a 3D world, with natural light and shadow, were they were able to use their senses and interact... the sensual is not always "dirty" after all.

Sacred art varies between cultures and we all know that. Vive la diference, I say. If it is respectful, sacred art of various types can be a thing of inspiration in beauty in 2D or 3D, in reverse perspective or in "realistic" view.

Jesus was a participant in a very real and very unstylized world. He was 3D, after all, like the rest of us. So is it blasphemous to try to show Him as He was? Or to depict Him in illustrative roles, like as the Good Shepherd? "The Lord is my shepherd... I shall not want..." What's wrong with painting the logical picture?

One of my favorite art works is a 3D relief sculpture in the Franciscan Monastery in DC. It has a moving (to me) depiction of the Crucifixion. I can stare at it for longer than I can stare at a hockey game. (And that's a long time.) It brings tears to my eyes. I was there on Good Friday one year and a couple young Sisters of Mercy were reduced to tears at the sight of it. They were holding each other and crying, just like the holy women are shown who followed Jesus. One of them muttered to me, a little embarrassed, "it looks so real."

Personally, I prefer the typical depictions in icons in many ways. Not because I view 2D as superior or holier to 3D, but because I am far less distracted by wondering if a less realistic portrayal is "how the holy person depicted REALLY looked." I find myself studying icons for the unique things in them - an extra hand, a saint with a sword, how far through the alphabet St. Cyrill's scroll (if depicted) has gotten.

Defending "art" - or even defining it perhaps - can be a thankless task. Good luck in your endeavor. Share what you come up with when it is published.





Quote
Originally posted by Leao:
Renaissance art introduced secular artistic innovations into the traditional Christian iconography such as 3D perspective, natural light, shadow and perhaps most significantly its sensual over tone. A lot of Western religious art from the Renaissance period is almost indistinguishable from the secular art of the time other than by its religious theme.

While the appropriation of pagan elements into early Christian art was traditionally regarded as a 'Christianisation' of pagan art (e.g. the traditional pagan motif of the shepherd and his flock was easily propagated by Christians to express Christ the Good Shepherd), Orthodox art historians regard the appropriation of secular artistic elements during the Renaissance as a "paganisation of Christian art', an "obscuration' of the traditional transcendental nature of the Byzantine icon that was achieved in particular through the dissimulation of carnal elements that were later emphasized by Renaissance painters such as Raphael (see Quenot quote below). The traditional reversal of ways of seeing in the traditional icon, e.g. reverse perspective, and the subjection of the iconographer to artistic canons are generally understood by Orthodox theologians of the icon as a challenge to the fallen world in much the same way that the preaching of the Gospel (e.g. the Beatitudes) point in a direction opposite to the ways of the fallen world.

How can one defend the revolutionary upheaval in Catholic art during the Renaissance and the decline in the presence of the icon in Catholic churches? Leonid Ouspensky in The Theology of the Icon even describes the Renaissance as 'blasphemous', contradicting the 7th Ecumenical Council that precisely defined the exact role of the icon.

I would be very grateful for some help please!!
My thesis touches upon the aforementioned and I have not found any comprehensive defense of Renaissance art with reference to Orthodox criticism.

Thanks- Leo

Quote
Michael Quenot in The icon: Window on the Kingdom (1996, p. 78) argues that the "crooked heads, cross-eyes, twisted bodies and bulging bosoms (in Renaissance art), express more the disintegrated state of modern man than his thirst for a reality beyond the material world'.

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
One distinction that I think is helpful is to recognize the difference between sacred or liturgical art (the traditional icon) that has a distinct liturgical and sacramental purpose and general religious art which, while not appropriate in a church setting, expresses the unique religious experience/perspective of the artist, oftentimes inspired by the Holy Spirit! (Henri Nouwen's meditation on Rembrandt's "The Return of the Prodigal Son" is a great example of the power of the contemplative vision applied to religious (non-liturgical) art.)

Just my two cents...

Gordo


Moderated by  Irish Melkite 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0