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Should Turkey be allowed into the EU, and if so, will she ever keep her promises (which she hasn't until now) on religious freedom?

SEE:

'Patriarchate Row Grows'
www.ekathimerini.com [ekathimerini.com]

Turkey is reputed to be and probably is one of the most "liberal" of all of the Muslim dominated countries. But can anyone say with a straight face that their treatment of Christians and Jews is not simply based upon the Dhimma? It may well be true that there are forms of Islam that are not hostile toward the rest of the world but sadly those Muslims do not control any of their own governments so far as I can tell. Islam has always seemed peaceful when its people did not have the upper hand but when they got it everyone else has hell to pay.

Here's the article referenced by Alice:

ISTANBUL (AP) � Two weeks before the European Union�s decision on whether to open membership talks with Turkey, there comes a reminder of the issue�s complexities.

A US Embassy reception in Ankara yesterday in honor of US Orthodox officials ignited a furor between the Turkish government and the Istanbul-based spiritual leader of the world�s Orthodox Christians � underscoring concerns about the largely Muslim country�s treatment of minorities.

Ecumenical Patriarch Vartholomaios, a Turkish citizen and ethnic Greek, is considered �first among equals� of the world�s Orthodox patriarchs. But Turkey has long refused to accept any international role for the patriarch, and rejects his use of the title �ecumenical,� or universal. It claims Vartholomaios is merely spiritual leader of Istanbul�s dwindling Orthodox community of less than 3,000.

So when the US Embassy sent out invitations for the reception hosted by Ambassador Eric Edelman that referred to Vartholomaios as �ecumenical patriarch� � a term long accepted by Washington and European governments � Ankara was furious. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan�s government sent out a decree to public officials ordering them not to attend.

�We find it wrong that although none of our citizens has such a title, that invitations are issued in this form,� he said in a television interview on Wednesday.

[On Wednesday, Vartholomaios complained bitterly about Ankara�s backtracking on a promise to reopen the Halki Orthodox Seminary, that was closed by Turkey in 1971. The status of a Greek orphanage on Prinkiponisos is also a problem.]

The EU report that cleared the way for the December 17 summit decision warned that, in Turkey, �religious freedom is subject to serious limitations,� mentioning the Patriarchate�s problems with the seminary and orphanage. It also noted the precise issue that has now emerged, saying that �the ecclesiastical title of ecumenical patriarch is still banned.�

[Yesterday, the US State Department stepped in on the Patriarchate�s side, with spokesman Richard Boucher observing that Vartholomaios is the leader of millions of Orthodox Christians throughout the world. Edelman also noted that the Patriarchate�s problems are of concern to the US government. In Athens, the government said Turkey must meet EU requirements on respecting religious freedoms. Meanwhile, about 100 ultra-nationalist Turks protested outside the US Embassy yesterday, during the reception.]

We never learn anything, do we? I guess we should be grateful that Turkey is no longer killing Christians, only oppressing them. These Muslim governments are not our friends - never were, never will be.

byzanTn,

Ah, but the Dhimmi treaty may be and usually was broken at any time by the Muslims, but never by the Christians and Jews. Under the Dhimma the Muslims are the only citizens, Islam the only true religion.

Dan L

Had the West wholeheartedly supported Emperor St. Constantine Paleologus in his time of need in 1453, and not allowed the largest Christian empire of the time to fall to the Muslims, we would likely not be in this situation.

I concur, Diak. The West is to blame for the this Turkish problem.

But, in all seriousness, one can always throw out "ifs" for any situation. But we cannot really know how something would've turned out; it's all completely theoretical. I don't think it's fair to say, "If the West had done this, then X would've occured." This is merely speculation and certainly opens up the thread to hostility, based on the "East vs. West" mentality, especially in regards to the history of that unhappy Istanbul.

Logos Teen

Teen, do you have difficulty with the historical background? Had Constantinople and the Empire been preserved, it's pretty clear things would not be the same? Major historic events such as the collapse of the Roman Empire don't happen without very long-ranging consequences.

It is certainly at least partially the fault of the west. The fall of Constantinople was preventable. If you can keep an accident from happening, and you don't there is some responsibility that needs to be acknowledged.

I think as a member of a Western society (i.e. USA) I most definitely have the right to be self-critical of the history of my society. There is no undercurrent of polemic, only objective realization that the West blew an opportunity to halt the incursion of Islam and the fall of Constantinople.

Diak,

I don't think it's healthy to point fingers and pull out theoretical situations- - -it's in the past. How is blaming the West going to help anything? If you can list off a few good results that (theoretically ) would result from blaming the West for these problems, then I'll consider your point. Otherwise, I must respectfully disagree and say that I think pointing fingers for something that happened 500 years ago by no one who is still living today is unnecessarily divisive.

Logos Teen

So considering root causes for current affairs is meaningless? That's what I'm reading. And I disagree that it is in ANY way devisive, because as the son of a Western culture I can most certainly be self-critical of the historical failures of that culture and history.

One doesn't learn anything by forgetting the past. One only makes the same mistakes.

I agree with you, and now the West has another historical oportunity to help our Orthodox Brethren, not by war but by diplomacy. Hopefully also the US can be of help in such dialogue... although we all know how zealous are Muslims on these matters... let us all pray to the Lord for the freedom of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome.

God Bless

I unite my prayer with Alice's, and hope that the U.S. and other Western European countries can settle this thing out in whatever way will benefit the Patriarchate.

No, Diak, I don't eschew considersations of historical decisions and their impacts on today's status quo. I must persist in saying, though, that I don't think "what ifs" are helpful to this already divisive conundrum.

This is only my opinion and I certainly don't mean to offend. Your position is not offensive to me, but I do disagree. I hope we can leave it at that in a respectful manner.

Logos Teen

No offense taken, obviously. Others will agree.

That is one of the great things about history, having these kinds of civil discussions regarding interpretive opinions. I too unite my prayer that the successor of St. Andrew the First-Called can practice, along with his entire church, the Holy Orthodox faith in complete freedom.

The problem is that the Byzantine Empire was so weak and, let's face it, so corrupt that it's fall probably would have happened no matter what the west had done. Though I have very little regard for Islam many people were happy to get out from under the yoke of Constantinople. Sadly, they took on a yoke even worse, but they took it on anyway. Constantinople was virtually only a city by 1453.

Dan L

In reading some Orthodox books involving Russia, what stood out most to me was that the pious Orthodox laypeople blamed their own collective sins for their Soviet predicament.

Who knows what the state of Byzantium's collective soul was in those last years? Might it have been apostasized?

Earlier in Byzantium's history, all the inhabitants of Constantinople turned to our Lady in the all night prayer vigil of the Akathist Hymn, and they were miraculously saved.

Who knows what God's will is in history and in our personal histories and lives?

The most liberating thing I have come to realize in my own growth in Christ, is that God's will is supreme, and if a prayer gets answered, or doesn't get answered, or is unbelievably delayed in an answer, it is because it is God's will. Earlier in my life, I sometimes blamed persons for situations that made my life difficult. I have come to realize that even those people and the situations they bring, are there because of God's will and plan for our lives. This was most recently confirmed in a conversation I just read between the author of 'The Mountain of Silence' (Prof. Kyriakos Markides) and a young, educated Athonite Elder who is sent to Cyprus to start up monasteries for the good of the people.

Therefore, with all due respect to Diak, (and I have ALOT of it for brother Diak) I will have to agree with Teen that this part of history is divisive. As a cradle Orthodox, and a one of Greek background to boot, I know that the sentiment of blame posed by Diak in regard to the West and the fall of Byzantium, is a source of great bitterness and anomosity for the Greek Orthodox. History seen through secular eyes confirms the weakening of Constantinople because of the West. History seen through spiritual eyes, can only speculate.

I will join Pope John Paul II in his plea for a purification of memory. I think the time is right.

In Christ,
Alice

In a statement issued by the Vatican after a recent audience by the Ambassador of Turkey to the Holy See with Pope John Paul II, it was stressed that the Holy See will stay "neutral" on Turkey's application for membership in the EU. Turkey was/is hoping for an open Vatican support for her EU bid.

The Vatican "merely" reiterated one of the principles for EU membership: the guarantee by a State of religious freedom for all its citizens within its boundaries, which I think is a strong but veiled reference to the plight of the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarchate and of other Christians in the Phanar.

There is a significant but relatively small community of Latin and Eastern Catholics in Turkey requiring the presence of an Apostolic Nuncio in Ankara.

Add to this the just concluded translation of the Holy relics of Sts. John and Gregory from Rome to Constantinople and you can hear subtly the undertones of the Holy See's position.

Amado