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Greetings All

My wife and I are now finding ourselves in unchartered waters (figuratively speaking) and would appreciate if somebody on this forum could offer an insight or advice on what is the best way to proceed. In short, we were both baptised Ukrainian Orthodox but are now seriously thinking about joining the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Although we are not “there yet” ourselves (as we need to take further studies etc) we decided to baptise our newborn son as a Greek Catholic and approached the local UGCC priest with this request. To complicate the matters further we have also attended the Greek Catholic Liturgy on a number of occasions and have taken Communion there. The issues that we need to resolve therefore are:

Baptism

We understand our belonging to Orthodox confession should not be a barrier to our son's baptism as a Greek Catholic. Is that true?

Communion

Obviously, taking Communion in a non-Orthodox Church is strongly discouraged by the Orthodox doctrine. Because of our intention to eventually join UGCC, however, this really does not concern us. We are much more concerned with the legality of our actions from the UGCC perspective. We understand RC does not permit Orthodox Christians to receive Communion unless there are special circumstances (grave illness, etc) which obviously do not apply in our case. Would that also be the case with UGCC or are there any dispensations? (would not think so, but have to ask just in case)

Reaffirmation of Faith by the parents

Must admit this subject was discussed only briefly, but as we understand it us, parents and the Godparents (mixture of Catholics and non-Catholics) are required to go through the reaffirmation of Faith before baptismal ceremony can take place. Do we understand it correctly, and if so, can non-Catholics go through this ceremony with UGCC?


Any help will be greatly appreciated.


Buchik

Hi,

The Catholic Church (Roman, Byzantine, any other Catholic churches) do have open communion only with the Orthodox. So, the Roman Catholic Church can allow you to receive communion.

The Catholic Church already recognized the Orthodox Church as true sister Church (that is also a True Church, that contain valid Sacraments and Apostolic Succession). So, in ways, we are united spiritually thru the valid Sacraments.

It's only physically we are separated.

Of course, the Orthodox Church does not permit you to receive communion in the Catholic Church, because the Orthodox Church does not want to or try to acheive unity for the sake of Jesus Christ.

Why should you convert to Catholicism when your faith also is true? We should all "merge" into one Church instead of converting from here and there. We should all praise G-d together as one.

You can remain Orthodox and still pray for unity and receive Catholic communion. Perhaps, you can live as an example as an Orthodox Christian who desires unity.

G-d bless you and may He guide you where ever you feel inspired to do.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

With all due respect, I wish to raise the following point:

Of course, the Orthodox Church does not permit you to receive communion in the Catholic Church, because the Orthodox Church does not want to or try to acheive unity for the sake of Jesus Christ.

Who are you to judge that the Orthodox Church is not interested in striving for unification with the Church of Rome? Whilst I respect your opinions, it is presumptuous for you to make such a comment.

Anton

Buchik:

I think you need to explore these questions with the priest in the UGCC parish where you have been attending. He will be the one who can give you authoritative answers to these questions.

As an Orthodox Christian, you understand the Eucharistic discipline of your Church. The Orthodox Church does not practice open communion. Neither does the Catholic Church. Communion means that you are already in full agreement and communion with the Church in which you are communing, as well as striving to be at-one with the Risen Lord you are receiving. Communion is not a means to the end of unity. It is a participation in unity already lived.

While there is a special permission for those Orthodox Christians to receive when they are a long distance from their own parish for a long period of time, you should check with the UGCC priest to see if it applies to you. My understanding is that the National Conference of Catholic Bishops has stated that this special provision is not something that is usually needed in this country.

May the Lord continue to lead you on your pilgrim journey.

BOB

SPDundas:

You posted:
________________
Of course, the Orthodox Church does not permit you to receive communion in the Catholic Church, because the Orthodox Church does not want to or try to acheive unity for the sake of Jesus Christ.
________________

With all due respect, I believe that you owe our Orthodox brethren an apology. The Orthodox Church has been on record as praying for and working for the unity that the Lord prayed for. That a Church takes the admonitions of the Apostles and the Fathers about guarding the precious treasure that is the Eucharistic Lord seriously should not in any way be taken as being against unity among Christians.

It is often easy for those of us who have grown up since 1950 to think that the relaxed discipline of the Catholic Church was always the way things were practiced. But it is not that way. In the 19th century, it was often the practice among Catholics that, even after confession, one had to ask permission of one's pastor to receive Holy Communion. And that permission was often not given every week in a row even if one had confessed.

It seems to me that one of the obstacles to unity at present is the Catholic Church's openness in this area. The Church's intention was that we should take on the discipline ourselves as adults, but the result has been a very casual attitude that scandalizes our Orthodox brethren.

My own opinion is that we have a lot to regain in this area from the strictness that the Orthodox Church still practices and gives us as an example. I often tell adults in a seminar that I teach that the attitude and the way in which we approach and handle the Lord of Glory when He is helpless in our hands is the way He will treat and handle us when we are in His Hands at our death. I use this as a wake-up call when we are tempted to a casual attitude.

In Christ,

BOB

My Greek Orthodox (GO) wife and I are in a similar situation. I'm a Latin Catholic. We baptized our daughter in the GO church. I have recently conversed with a Ukrainian Catholic priest who indicated that he would administer Communion to my Orthodox daughter. I never asked about my wife but I'm sure if she wished she could receive.

Brad

I apologize. But I can't be wishy washy about this issue.

However, it seems to be the attitude of many Orthodox who don't want to achieve unity or even TRY to look for reasons to stay divided. (i.e. Filoque issue..which isn't even an issue anymore!)

However, the Orthodox Church also have casual attitude in that area as well.

As I'm encountered by many Orthodox Christians who thought that Confession isn't "so important" before one receives Eucharist.

So, someone said about the "strictness" of the Orthodoxy. Well, let me tell you, The Catholic Church is far more stricter in many things than the Orthodox especially when it comes to faith and morals. The Catholic Church also pocesses ORTHODOXY.

The issue about open Eucharist to the Orthodox in the Catholic Church isn't even an issue of one is "strict" about it or whatever. It's about the TRUTH of Christian LOVE.

That the Catholic and Orthodox share one common Sacraments of LOVE (G-d) because it's valid. One can't be stricter than G-d Himself who unites us with VALID Sacraments.

So, the reason I said the Orthodox don't want to achieve Unity (shut Catholics with VALID Sacraments OUT) because they don't want to have Open Communion with the Catholic Church, the ONE and SAME Sacrament that the Catholic Church has..which is VALID...and the Sacrament of Eucharist is CHRIST Himself.

In the Orthodox Church: To Deny Catholics of Sacraments is to Deny the LOVE that G-d unites us with (Sacraments).

That's why Christ said..that we should not only Love G-d with all our hearts and soul, but love our neighbors (PEOPLE of G-d) as well.

SO, if the Orthodox want to have Open Eucharist, then that is a sign of Love of Neighbors just as G-d commanded. The Neighbor that also has VALID Sacraments.

How can one Love G-d but still shut other people out at the same time? Especially since Catholics also have VALID Sacraments? Is the Catholic Sacraments VALID or NOT?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

As to Baptism, while at least one god-parent must be a Catholic (of whichever variety), the other need not - and in general Orthodox godparents are welcome. I've never heard of any particular test of the faith of the parents, save the question of their willingness to bring up the child in the Faith. It is not uncommon for a Greek-Catholic priest to be asked to baptize the child of Orthodox parents, for a whole variety of reasons. Sometimes the parents ask that the Eastern Orthodox adherence of the child be noted in the Register; more often they do not.
As to Holy Communion, Eastern Orthodox Christians are welcome to receive Holy Communion in Catholic Churches. That may be a new development for the Latisn, but Greek-Catholics have normally practiced this for many centuries (probably since the Great Schism). Some Eastern Orthodox authorities find this annoying, and ask us to please cease and desist, because the Orthodox Christian receiving the Holy Mysteries from a Greek-Catholic priest either knows or should know that he is violating the discipline of his own Church. Greek-Catholics respond that if we are one Church (which we believe is the case), there is no such violation going on, and if we are not one Church, then we have no obligation to enforce someone else's rules. It's not dissimilar to the fairly frequent cases of people who are uhable to receivng the Sacrament of Matrimony in a Catholc Church going and getting married in an Orthodox Church instead. The Orthodox Church has no obligation to enforce Catholic marriage discipline. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Incognitus

Yesterday I brought my 11 month old daughter up for communion in the Greek Orthodox church.
For fear of being denied (as I don't speak Greek) I did not go up to receive myself.
I onced asked a Greek Orthodox priest if I could receive the Eucharist in his church and his reply was the following.. I quote
"As per the receiving of the Holy Eucharist in the Orthodox Church, the answer to this is no, as a Latin Catholic.
I know that the Catholic Church would not say no to an Orthodox willing to receive, as we are the only Church the Catholic Church recognizes as being sacramental and of Apostolic Succession. But, the Orthodox do not allow the Catholics to receive, simply because we are not in communion yet, so why act like we are? Yes, the Eastern Rite Catholic services are very similar to the Orthodox liturgies. As I understand it,they were Orthodox for a long time, but changed for various reaasons and went under the pope. But the services and many traditions are the same. In Christ, Fr. Theologos"

Brad

Well, if we deny Protestants communion does that mean we doesn't love God as well?

Aren't the Protestants our neighbours too?
Do they not belive in the same Christ as we do?

Since the Second Vatican Council the Catholic Church has held that the Orthodox churches are "true particular churches" with valid sacraments.

However, not all Orthodox Christians believe that the Catholic church is a true church with valid mysteries.

For example, the Orthodox Church of Greece and the fathers of the Holy Mountain baptizes anyone converting to the Orthodox faith, including Catholics.

To quote Bishop Kallistos Ware:

"Workers for Christian unity who do not often encounter this rigorist school should not forget that such opinions are held today by Orthodox OF GREAT HOLINESS AND LOVING COMPASSION" (emphasis mine)

If some Orthodox churches started practising open communion this would scandalize many faithful and cause division between the Orthodox churches.

Should one sacrifice the unity between one's brothers and sisters, in order to achieve unity with one's cousins?

Christian,

who had promised himself not to get involded on this board again, but still fell for the temptation to speak his mind...

Well because the Protestants don't have Sacraments, and if they do, it's invalid because of invalid Apostolic Succession (except for Church of English, which is still a big question mark).

The Orthodox have valid Sacraments. So that's a big difference. The Orthodox don't seem to be united when it comes to recognizing the Sacraments of the Catholic Church because some do and some don't.

If both Catholic and Orthodox Sacraments are valid, then that means there is a unity in mystical way. So let's go for the physical way if we are united spiritually and mystically. Because obviously G-d doesn't see it that way, only FALLEN men with closed minds/eyes see it that way. The Catholic Church is bending backwards TRYING to make an effort for Christian Unity...trying to make amends.

There is a Greek Orthodox Church that allows me to receive Communion. Can't say where and who. This Church, I feel very strongly united. Because the bond of Christ in the Sacraments are STRONGER than any schisms or human failings.

Holy Eucharist is Jesus Christ HIMSELF...Truly Immaculate Body and Truly Precious Blood. It's ONLY thru Jesus Christ, we become United.

So why do the Orthodox deprive the Catholics of Jesus in Communion? It is only thru Him that the schism will be HEALED for sure. Does the Orthodox not have faith in Christ? That He will heal the schism? Why are the hearts hardened and closed towards Catholics?

I only said that because of what the Orthodox act out to be. So, my comments do not reflect on the Orthodox who want to achieve unity since it's already in their hearts. My comments direct to those who don't want unity and those who have harden hearts to deny Christ to Catholics.

I have many Orthodox friends who feel the same way as I do, fortunately.

L-rd Jesus Christ, Son of G-d, the Healer of Mankind, have mercy on us all!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Well, SPDundas, the way to unity must involve dialouge, no?

And it's not a good starting point for a dialouge to have the attitude you seem to have, that people who disagree with your point of view "does not love G-d","does not have faith in Christ" and "have their harts hardened and closed".

Christian

I cannot name one Orthodox Catholic who does not think confession is unimportant. Our priest almost weekly explains to the congregation how important confession is and what the requirements are for receiving Holy Communion. We have Holy Communion information posted at the entrance way to our church for those visitors who may or may not be Orthodox Catholics and are visting for the first time. I would say that our precautions are much more strict than the Roman Catholic church. I cannot receive Communion as an Orthodox if I dont comply to what is required. I personally know Roman Catholics who have not been to church in years and forgot about confession who have received Holy Communion at two of the last funeral Masses I attended. Why, because they were not challenged and they probably thought it was the nice thing to do.

JoeS

//...As I'm encountered by many Orthodox Christians who thought that Confession isn't "so important" before one receives Eucharist.

So, someone said about the "strictness" of the Orthodoxy. Well, let me tell you, The Catholic Church is far more stricter in many things than the Orthodox especially when it comes to faith and morals. The Catholic Church also pocesses ORTHODOXY.,,,//

Many thanks to everybody. Your guidance in this very important matter has been greatly appreciated. Of course, we will also talk to the priest in question, but it really helps to know how serious your transgression is before you do so.

Buchik

Buchik:

"Transgression" is something one does with an attitude of wanting to run afoul of the rules.

A simple misunderstanding with the best of intentions is, I think, where you were/are at. Be at peace with what has been done and go back with a light heart.

In Christ,

BOB

Buchik,
Canon 844 paragraph 3 states Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judegement of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regards to the sacraments as these Eastern Churchers.

There is no need for you to be in danger of death, or not having an Orthodox Church nearby, this section of the canon simply recognizes that you may on any occasion receive these three sacraments if you request them.
It clarifies that an Orthodox person needs to act with local Orthodox leaders.
But since it is your intent to enter into communion with the UGCC I wouldnt say that that applies to you per se.
Why enter into communion with the Catholic Church as someone here asked?
Well from a Catholic perspective simply put "it is the will of Christ." Is not this important.

Stephanos I

Buchik,

That could be dangerous off the shores of Oz; reefs, great whites, and all that .

Seriously, welcome to the forum. In our enthusiasm to answer questions posed to us by newcomers, we sometimes forget our manners and fail to say 'hello'.

From the Code of Canon Law of the Eastern Churches (CCEO):

The Code of the Latin (or Roman) Church (CCO) provides similarly:

As you see, in both instances, the sole requirements are that the Orthodox Christian ask of their own free will to receive such and that they are properly disposed to receive the Mystery. It is not necessary that there be extraordinary circumstances involved.

At the same time, the Catholic Churches do not presume to usurp/interfere in the relationship between Orthodox brethren and their Churches, which ordinarily forbid reception of Mysteries from Catholic clergy. Typically, the caution is voiced (it appears in the backnotes of the missalettes used in many US Latin parishes) that Orthodox Christians consider the discipline or directives of their own Church in deciding whether or not to receive the Mysteries in a Catholic church. In these circumstances, where you have a decided commitment to enter communion with the UGCC, the issue is obviously moot or soon will be. The decision whether to receive the Mysteries in the UGCC prior to your formal entry into communion is yours to make.

From the Code of Canon Law - Eastern:

As you can see from Section 5, technically, (other than in danger of death), the baby's baptism by an Eastern Catholic priest should be limited to instances where no minister of the parents' faith is available (this particular canon doesn't distinguish between the Orthodox and those of other Christian denominations). However, as you and your wife are anticipating entering communion with the UGCC, it makes eminent sense that your son be baptized in the UGCC.

I suspect that set of mixed circumstances you describe (i.e., you seeking his baptism possibly before the two of you enter communion) is at the heart of another issue that you raised.

As you see, except in the situation that I previously cited (of a non-Catholic Christian infant baptized by a Catholic priest because of the physical inability to have the baptism performed by a minister of the infant's own Church), the licity of the baptism depends in part on the intent to raise the infant as a Catholic. I think that the priest, in his reference to an affirmation of faith on your part, may be suggesting that you and your wife should commit to your change of communion prior to or simultaneous with your son's baptism.

As to the Godparents, I think he is merely referring to the commitment by the Catholic Godparent to assist in/see to the Catholic upbringing/education of your son. It would make no sense to ask that the non-Catholic (? Orthodox) Godparent affirm his/her belief in a faith (Catholic) to which he/she does not subscribe.

Altenatively, his reference may be to the statements/promises made on the infant's behalf by the parents and Godparents (e.g., renounciation of Satan).

Finally, the right to have an Orthodox Christian as a Godparent is provided for in the Eastern Code. The only stipulation is that the other Godparent be Catholic.

Hope this helps.

Congratulations to you and your wife on the birth of your son . May God grant him many years, in good health and love of God and his fellow man.

Welcome to both of you in your decision to enter communion with the UGCC and, hopefully, you'll continue to post here. We can always use another Ukrainian (just ask Hritzko ).

Many years,

Neil

Buchik,

If you are planning on attending a UGCC church because there are no Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in your area, please do so, BUT do not convert. Simply tell your priest that due to geographical limitations you can't attend your UOC and have opted for the UGCC.

We alternate between the Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches here in Boston all the time, and both priests think it's great.

Be as Orthodox as you like in the UGCC churches - and let everyone know it. Also, encourage some of the UGCC members to attend the UOC churches for special services if possible.

You are not alone.......

For example, there are an estimated 140,000 to 200,000 Ukrainians who have recently emigrated to the Czeck Republic. About 40,000 are legal immigrants, the rest are not. The new immigrants are a combination of Ukrainian Greek-Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox Church (KP & MP) members. Those from the the East are far less churched but still consider themselves Orthodox Kyivan Christians and have come to understand that Greek-Catholicism is their faith also.

Many of them now attend the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Czech Greek Catholic Exarchate). This massive Ukrainian influx of new immigrants has greatly helped the dying Greek Catholic Exarchate which had between 6,000 and 8,000 elderly members.

The thousands of new Ukrainian immigrants do not care one iota that the church is 'Greek-Catholic' because to them that is just a variant of their Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Someone used the expression 'Baptismal by necessity' to describe the Ukrainian Orthodox members attending the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Prague (and the rest of the Republic) because they doubt if any of them have gone through any formal conversion, or if they ever will. The bishop is a Hungarian who doesn't speak their language and that may be the biggest barrier at this point and any further formal conversion. To them it is important that the Church is Ukrainian Orthodox under a homeland Kyivan Patriarchate and in communion with Rome and Constantinople.

So the next time you attend the UGCC church in Australia, remember - don't convert, respect each other, and that you are not alone - we are one Kyivan church.

Hritzko