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Dear Orthodox Catholic,

I hope you don't actually believe some of the things you say. They are clearly not in accord with what Holy Mother Church has promulgated.(i.e. in regards to universaly jurisdiction of the Pope, Necessity of the Papal office)

In Christ,
Michael

Dear Michael,
Welcome to the forum.

Please remember that this is Byzantine forum. It is inappropriate to apply a litmus test to any participant here. It would be better if you did not take anything a forum member says and color it with your perception of what they ought to think.

If you would like to share your thinking on issues or beliefs I am sure more than a few would be interested and if you would like to learn something more about what your brothers and sisters in Christ think this is a good place to start but if you take the stance you are taking we already know what you think and you have nothing to contribute here.

Peace
Michael, sinner

Dear MikeJG0185:

As a fellow Roman Catholic and guest on this forum, forgive me if I am misconstruing, but are you aware that "Orthodox Catholic" is an Eastern Catholic? Were you reading his name as "Orthodox Roman Catholic"?

I would like to know where the Eastern Catholic Churches officially deny the "Roman" Catholic conception of Papal Jurisdiction. Just inquiring, not challenging.

Logos Teen

Dear Michael and Teen,

Most Byzantine's feel no need to deny anything about the Roman formulation of doctrines and dogmas. Byzantine Catholics are "in full communion" in faith and love with Roman Catholics.

However, we are encouraged by the Pope himself, to retain and affirm our own beautiful, historic, and valid theological patrimony. We have our own theology, which is as old, as catholic, as valid, as important as the Roman and Western ways of theology. It is also different. But that is a richness.

I hope you will continue to read and participate, and join in the discussions here. But every affirmation of an eastern or byzantine theology by our forum community, is neither a denial nor a challenge to Roman Catholic theology. It is only different, and it is ours.

Elias

I have always agreed with this, Fr. Elias, and still do. I think/hope everyone here that knows me knows this as well.

You state that Eastern and Western Catholics have the same beliefs but express them in different but equally valid ways. This is precisely why it doesn't make sense to me when Eastern (or Western) Catholics don't, frankly, agree to every single iota of Papal Infallibility. It is a matter of dogma and thus both East and West must must must submit to it, as a teaching of their Church. This isn't some "litmus test", this is admitted by both Eastern and Western Catholics.

I suppose Papal Jurisdiction is a different matter since it's a doctrine and not a dogma. Don't quite know.

Logos Teen

And agree with Teen of the Incarnate Logos as well. I realize that the Eastern Catholic Churches have different ways of explaining certain theological elements. And that both the Eastern way and Western are both perfectly valid and both show the true catholicity of the Church. My only concern is when people disagree on something that is dogma that the whole universal Church must except.

God Bless,
Michael

*And I agree with...

The following is from a very knowledgeable Catholic priest:

Logos Teen

Dear Mike,

Sorry to get back to you so late - I was on a Caribbean cruise last week . . .

And I hope you know what you are talking about when you say you hope I don't believe some of the things I say!

Could you point out what "things" you believe I am saying?

I think you are interpreting what I say to suit your Latin Catholic and ultramontanist approach to the Papacy.

As an Eastern Catholic, I challenge you on that and await your response with great eagerness!

(And, Teen Logo, if you want to "tag-team" with Mike, that's fine - just wear your helmet and extra body padding, O.K.? )

A sun-tanned Alex

Dear Teen:

Of course the Vatican cousnels would have taken such a stand - how else could they justify their stance on Papal Primacy? Of course, your very knowlegable (no doubt an RC) priest used the word "doctrine" and NOT "dogma." If it's not subject to change and a matter of firm faith based in scripture, why shy away from going for the gusto and calling it "dogma?"

In addition, no true Eastern Catholic would argue that the Pope does not have the authority to "speak" on matters that concern the ENTIRE church. What many of us take issue with is the Pope's assertion of power over purely internal matters of the sui juris churches. The appointment of bishops outside of the "traditional territory" of these churches is but one example.

Yours,

kl

Now Alex! I never once said I wanted to be Mike's tag-team partner! You Easterners play rough. By the way how was the Caribbean? I take it you burn easily?

Krylos Leader,

Your thoughts and opinions are well-taken.

With all due respect, I don't think the First Vatican Council needs to "justify their stance" on anything, since Christ Himself speaks infallibly through the council.

ISTM that the "primacy of jurisdiction" of the Bishop of Rome is a doctrine and thus infallible, BUT has not been dogmatized (i.e. the Church hasn't told us which is the "right way" to define this).

So, I think we may agree. I certainly concur that everyday maintenance matters of the Eastern Catholic Churches should not be interfered with by the pope. The pope, as the good father stated above, should only intervene "in matters which concern the unity of the universal Church."


Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

I thought you were ready to jump on Mike's ultramontanist bandwagon, and that appeared like you wanted to be his tag-team partner .

My skin is as sensitive to the sun as your feelings are to what I think are my innocuous comments .

Actually, it was the wind on board the ship that really did it to me.

Wind and sun are the ultimate tag-team partners of sunburn!

Alex

Dear Krylos Leader,

Yes, excellent points!

Ultramontanist Mike ( ) hasn't really studied the Vatican II decree on the Eastern Churches - at least, if he has, it doesn't show in his posts.

In fact, that Decree emphatically asserted the rights and responsibilities of the Particular Eastern Churches and Patriarchates in communion with Rome to govern themselves.

No one Latin Council has stated the final word on the papacy. Even the Pope himself, in asking the Orthodox for their input on how the Petrine Primacy should be exercised, opened himself to new suggestions for redefining papal roles and jurisdiction, as well as styles of leadership.

I don't understand Ultramontanist Mike's accusations against me for disloyalty to the Catholic faith . . .

His relationship to the Pope is different from mine since the Pope is his Patriarch - but he isn't mine.

We Easterners are NOT under the Pope in terms of most of his nine papal titles ie. Bishop of Rome, Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Primate of Italy, Patriarch of the West etc.

That isn't being disloyal to the Catholic faith or to the Pope.

That is just the way things are!

Alex

Dear Alex:

You have picked up on my point perfectly. I can't say it any better, so I won't try. I just find it a shame that there are those on this forum that think their views on church governance are superior to others and resort to ad hominum attacks instead of intellectual discourse.


Dear Teen:

Wow! We agree on something! Still, let me ask you one thing - from where do you derive your belief that Christ himself is speaking infallably through the Vatican cousnels?

Yours,

kl