www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Purgatory

Ray K - hilarious - 'sit tight - we are taking you back to - Purgatory!' - never saw it quite that way - uh-oh, it's going to tell me that right now.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John & Ray,
Thanks for your compliments! I appreciate them. I don't know where that idea came from. I have a pretty active imagination - probably from studying too much. I think studying Calculus really opened my mind to God & the infinite! Wolfgang

Hello, first off let me clarify the understanding of Purgatory. When you ask about the Eastern belief, there are two different views. One is held by Eastern Catholics, which is the same view as the rest of the Catholic church. The other is held by the Orthodox. Orthodoxy teaches that after the soul leaves the body, it journeys to the abode of the dead (Hades). There are exceptions such as the Theotokos. As for the rest, we must remain in this condition of waiting. Because some have a prevision of the glory to come and others foretaste their suffering, the state is called "Particular Judgment".When Christ returns, the soul rejoins its risen body to be judged by Him. The eastern Catholic churches look like Orthodoxy but really they are just the Roman Catholic church in a different suit.

Benedict's Apprentice writes that "The eastern Catholic churches look like Orthodoxy but really they are just the Roman Catholic church in a different suit."

Others of us, including myself, have a quite different understanding of the matter. On the specific issue in question, I would be inclined to refer those interested to the liturgical texts of the "Saturdays of the Dead", which can be found in the Lenten Triodion (for the first four such Saturdays) and the Pentecostarion (for the fifth, which is the Saturday before Pentecost). Thus we pray and thus we believe.

Incognitus

Incognitus, of course Eastern Catholics are unique in style of worship but in matters of faith they must be accepting of Roman doctrine or they would not be considered in union with Rome, hence their view of Purgatory. The Orthodox, at least the Greek Orthodox in Greece have this view of Purgatory posted as their taught belief. Whether one believes this or that is truly irrelevant because to receive Communion in our Church, whatever that should be, we should uphold the taught beliefs of that Church. Unless that Church doesn't take a definite stance! Also, since many Byzantines don't say the filioque can they really be considered to be in Communion with Rome?

B's A,

The Catholic Church requires that one believe that 1. there is a state of purification after death and 2. prayer for the dead is effacious. After that it is all theological opinion and one Church's particulars are as good as anothers, nor is one required to adhere to anothers conception of that state of purification.

Fr. Deacon Lance

"Also, since many Byzantines don't say the filioque can they really be considered to be in Communion with Rome?"

Well since the original Creed did not have it I think we can safely say yes. The Pope himself does not say the filioque when he recites the Creed in Greek, nor do any Catholics who use the Greek language liturgically, since to do so would be heresy .

Fr. Deacon Lance

Thus posted Incognitus:
> ... the liturgical texts of the "Saturdays of the
> Dead", which can be found in the Lenten Triodion
> (for the first four such Saturdays) and the
> Pentecostarion (for the fifth, which is the
> Saturday before Pentecost). Thus we pray and
> thus we believe.

And (primarily) in the Octoechos, where all eight tones have a service for the dead on Saturday; the Triodion refers to these and the Pentacostarion replicates parts of the sixth tone of this. In theory, every Saturday that is not of festive rank has an optional service for the dead; what the Russians do on "Demetrius' Saturday" is to revert to an otherwise archaic (though "still on the books") service.

Photius

Dear Benedict's Apprentice,

Actually, no.

There are different theological traditions that are in communion with Rome, including that of eschatology.

Rome, for example, never imposed indulgences on anyone - only for the Latin Church. Easterners tended to want them anyway.

The fact that EC's are Latinized here and there, does not mean that they are so because of Rome.

If anything, the history of Rome's relations to the EC churches is a history of Rome scolding them precisely BECAUSE they are Latinized.

EC church leaders obey Rome in all matters, save for when Rome admonishes them to return to their Eastern heritage.

The Orthodox Church defined, in a Local Council, as you know that Hades is where all those who are not yet "fit" for Heaven descend.

As to how long they stay there depends on the nature of their sinfulness.

That is a form of purgatory - it is just that the Orthodox Church does not define purgatory as a separate "state."

Alex

I want to thank everyone that sent me feedback on Purgatory.

I'm sorry for the delay in responding.

I am a Roman by birth, but living through Vatican II, I have severe reservations on ANYTHING published subsequent thereto.

I shall review the Catholic Encyclopedia, circa early 1900's, on this matter. I have more confidance in the old stuff.

I remember something about St. Theresa of Avala's visions of Purgatory from my past. I do feel there is such a place but I do believe it doesn't have to be defined. You might want to check this out.

We Byzantines have 6 dayes a year for "All Souls".

I bet the Othhodox to as well.

Pls advise.

With much love for everyone on this wonderful forum,

Jim

"There are saints in purgatory, they are a part of the redeemed. I have yet to meet a soul that was totally purged or purified here on earth and I am somewhat sure that even such a holy person as John Paul and Mother Theresa still had to undergo this process."

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Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II might not be totally purged of their earthly inclinations since they were so much a part of this world. Yet Saints Francis and Seraphim of Sarov who lived between heaven and earth, must certainly have attained 'unity' with God at a very fast rate.

Zenovia

I am a Byzantine Catholic, and just thought I'd toss in what I know about purgatory and such things.

From what I understand, there is particular judgment of an individual when he dies, and he is then sent to Hell, Purgation, or Heaven, according to his life. Each seems to be more an action than a place in the way humans see places as being. In other words, purgatory is not where you go instead of Heaven or Hell, it is what happens when you cannot yet enter Heaven. Likewise, it is my understanding that Heaven is the state of being in union with God through having undergone purgation.

I have heard many different things concerning purgatory, although I don't particularly remember all their origins. Among them, I once heard something about someone thinking of purgatory as a sort of courtyard just outside Hell, where you only receive some of the fire until Christ frees you at the general judgment at the End of Days. I don't remember where this came from, but don't particularly like the idea, both because of it being a more place-based idea, and because of it's relation to Hell.

Purgation is a way by which Christ allows those who have faith in Him to be brought to the Father - whatever that may mean, exactly - while Hell is the action of being out of union with God completely. I have read some things - not the Fathers, but modern authors - who say apparently some Orthodox believe one can even be brought out of Hell if he begins to believe in Christ after death, but I know nothing more than that, and therefore can't say anything about it. Was this accurate? Could a wise Orthodox individual perhaps help out here? Say, one who spends his time evangelizing African Americans from the tops of palm trees?

Christos Voskres!

Attention Benedict's Apprentice: I have no wish to be rude, but I can't help wondering who has appointed you to decide who is and who isn't in communion with the Catholic Church. Are you, for example, now the new Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith?
Unpalatable as this might be to you, such matters as Purgatory and the Filioque do not cause Pope Benedict XVI and did not cause his predecessors of the past few centuries to hurl excommunications at Greek-Catholics. I strongly suggest an attentive reading of Joseph Ratzinger's excellent book "Principles of Catholic Theology", with particular attention to what he says about the significance of the Eastern Churches.
And in general, it is inadvisable to try to tell other people what they believe when they are old enough and educated enough to articulate their beliefs for themselves.
Purgatory is an early medieval theological construct, in an effort to unify some data and resolve what appeared to be some loose ends. That is no secret at all; any scholarly history of the subject will confirm it. It is highly questionable whether such a theological construct is capable of being defined infallibly by anyone.
I apologize for being harsh - but I very much doubt that I am the only reader who feels offended. For the sake of Christ, forgive me.

Incognitus

Apprentice,

We of the East are about more than "smells and bells". As others have pointed out, we hold no view of Purgatory as a place, as is the Latin perspective, nor are we required to do so.

Being considerably less charitable than our revered brother, Incognitus, I'd say that was your cue to take a respite from posting here and hie yourself off to a traditionalist venue where such statements might be viewed as not merely quaint, but as actual fact, rather than the absurd excuse of a Latin triumphalist to air his ignorance in an authoritative manner - albeit, unfortunately, before those who know much better than you.

Many years,

Neil, who so enjoys inquirers, but is really tiring of those who give a bad name to the tourist trade

Junior Member
Member # 2341

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I am a Byzantine Catholic, and just thought I'd toss in what I know about purgatory and such things.

"From what I understand, there is particular judgment of an individual when he dies, and he is then sent to Hell, Purgation, or Heaven, according to his life. Each seems to be more an action than a place in the way humans see places as being. In other words, purgatory is not where you go instead of Heaven or Hell, it is what happens when you cannot yet enter Heaven. Likewise, it is my understanding that Heaven is the state of being in union with God through having undergone purgation."

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I recall reading a book on an after death experience. At the time I analyzed everything that was written, and found it to be very logical and accurate. Unfortunately I have forgotten most of what was written, but I do recall something that made a strong impression on me.

This women told her life story, and how she decided to take her life. After doing so, she found herself in a certain place (or state) and noticed the despair and perplexity that people had. She described some and said that most were teenagers.

After all this she began to remember a prayer she knew when she was young. That moment, Jesus appeared and pulled her out, and she came back to life. Realizing what had happend she asked, why me and not the others. He said, because you remembered me.

In other words, her heart became open to Him.

Zenovia