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Christos voskrese!

I would like to discuss the situation of the Russian Catholic Church sui iuris.

IMHO, this is simply a new violence against the Eastern Catholics, a new endeavour to latinize this church, which suffered so much.

The methods and procedures are like in the Middle Ages e.g. in Sicilia and Southern Italy - after the death of bishops of Byzantine rite, the "Catholics" not allowed to consecrate successors, but forced a latin bishop for the eparchies. Then no more priests were consecrated too, so people without own priests were forced to go to Latin churches and accept Latin priests. (Other practices as burning Greek books etc. are well known.)

Is not the situation of Russian Catholic Church the same? Rome denies to nominate an exarch or even an administrator and all should be subordinated to Latins.

The excuse is - we want not worsen relationships with Russian Orthodoxy. So we sell our people for the "peace". But even in Western Europe they deny to consecrate Russian Catholic priests. There are some Russian Catholic parishes with priests about 80 years old. No-one can say, this would rise ecumenical problems.

Well, the temptation to latinize the Russian Catholics must be really great. All Russians baptized in the Orthodox Church the were "converted" to the Catholicism, should be of Byzantine rite. May be, 40% or even more of the declared 1 million Catholics in Russia, should be of Byzantine rite. So why this great endeavour against the re-establishment of Russian Catholic Church.

When the Latin administratures had to be changed in dioceses, nobody asked the Orthodox. Why? "It is our right..."

If Russian Catholics want to re-establish the exarchate, "we must consult with the Orthodox Church." The believers do not have any rights (cf. can. 17-20 CCEO).

Here the Latin Church once more let us known, what they think about us - Eastern Catholics. We are not considered as fully Catholic or only as Catholics of the second (third) category (cf. can. 11 CCEO).

andreios
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Christos Voskrese!
Voistinu Voskrese!

Dear Andreios,

You pose an interesting problem, and one which I wonder about. I feel very strongly that Rome treats all its Eastern Catholics as second-class citizens, so to speak, but I am curious as to whether there is a refusal to ordain new priests in the Russian Catholic Rite, or simply a lack of interest in it? I am not familiar enough with the seminary situation there to know. Is there a pool of Russian Catholic seminary graduates that are actively seeking ordination that are being denied such? That would TRULY be a sin of great magnitude!

Gaudior, unsure whether to hope there is a large pool of committed seminarians being spurned by the Pope, or whether to hope that the Pope cares enough about the East, but there are just not enough seminarians of that particular practice (as opposed to, say Ukrainian Catholic, or...) confused

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Originally posted by Gaudior:
I am curious as to whether there is a refusal to ordain new priests in the Russian Catholic Rite, or simply a lack of interest in it? I am not familiar enough with the seminary situation there to know. Is there a pool of Russian Catholic seminary graduates that are actively seeking ordination that are being denied such?
Refusal. I has a good friend which some years is trying to get to ordination. And he said me, there are several others.

But not only this is the problem. All the Byzantine rite catholics in Russia, that want to be monks, have the only solution - enter in a latin congregation. And they are formed in the latin rite and have no possibility to be formed and ordained in the own rite.

andreios
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Christos Voskrese!
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HOW TERRIBLE! frown

That is indeed a sin.

Gaudior, in prayer that Rome realizes both lungs needed for a healthy church!

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That is indeed the way it is. And at the risk of being relegated to the Onion Dome, it is an outrage crying out to Heaven for redress.
Christ is Risen!
Incognitus

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Christos Voskrese!

Andreios, you are absolutely right. And refusal is the correct term, as I also know of some who have been turned away, not only for priesthood but diaconate and minor orders (tonsured readers and subdeacons).

This is a complete outrage and a negation of all of the gratuitious language that has been offerred to the Eastern Catholics from Rome. Put your money where your mouth is, as one American saying goes. Do Orientale Dignitas, Orientale Lumen, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Slavorum Apostoli, etc. mean anything? Anything at all?

Any church sui iuris deserves a hierarch simply because of its existence as a church sui iuris. A church without a visible hierarchy isn't really a church at all, is it? Waiting hand and foot on the Latins for your very existence?

Given the sacrifices and martyrdom of great and holy saints like Exarch Leonid (Federov) to precisely establish and maintain a Russian Catholic hierarchy, the situation with the Russian Catholics becomes all the more exasperating and cries out to God for justice.

The only option for monastics is to either go to the Latins or join the Studites of the UGCC, because the Russian Catholics have no hierarch, exarch, etc. who has the authority to erect a monastic foundation. Ludicrous, really, and most tragic.

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Dear Diak,

If the Vatican's reasoning here is that the Russian Catholics give offence to the Pat. of Moscow - then perhaps Rome should consider leaving the Russian Catholics alone and putting the Latin Catholics under them! wink

Alex

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Another truly outrageous aspect of it, even if Rome could use the potential ecclesio-political implications to justify its inaction in Russia, is the failure to provide an Exarch for the Byzantine Russians here in the US (which would seem unlikely to evoke much reaction from the MP).

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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I just don't get it...where's Patriarch..hmmm...whatever...primate or major archbishop Husar in all this? Seems to me he's closer to where the action is...if there are seminarians or lay members that want to be ordained to serve russian rite catholics that Husar would be able to ordain them, incardinate them or whatever in his patriarchate and dispense them to serve the russian rite catholics...

Why always blame Rome? Do we have any initiative? What an attitude to always be waiting for Rome to do something! How sad...

Sorry for the rambling but I just don't get it sometimes.

John

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John, it is sort of a canonical chicken and egg enigma. According to the canons, you have to have an eparch or exarch to ordain men for your church sui iuris.

And according to the canons, if you don't have an established eparchy or exarchate, which has to be erected and approved by Rome, you are remanded to the local Roman hierarchy. This in itself is outrageous.

Other bishops, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite, etc. have historically performed ordinations for the Russian Catholics and "loaned" them back, at least allowing the clergy to belong to and be ordained in a church of their own ritual tradition. Exarch Leonid, for example, was ordained to the priesthood by a Bulgarian Catholic bishop in Constantinople, Mikhail Mirov of blessed memory.

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Originally posted by Diak:
Other bishops, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite, etc. have historically performed ordinations for the Russian Catholics and "loaned" them back, at least allowing the clergy to belong to and be ordained in a church of their own ritual tradition.
John,

In El Segundo (CA), there's an example akin to that Diak cites. Archimandrite Alexei Smith serves both the Melkite community of St. Paul's Mission and the Russian parish of St. Andrew's (the two also share a single temple). Father Alexei was a parishoner of St. Andrew's who came to us (Melkites) as a seminarian and, on ordination, was assigned back to serve both his Russian parish family and the Melkite faithful of the area.

In a rare arrangement, the Cardinal Archbishop of LA asked of our Eparch that he accept the Russian parish under his omophor, although technically St. Andrew's is still canonically subject to the Latin archdiocese (Father Alexei, last I knew, was in charge of the ecumenical commission of the LA Archdiocese). So, these things can be done, but it isn't always that easy.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by Crucis:
I just don't get it...where's Patriarch..hmmm...whatever...primate or major archbishop Husar in all this?
The problem is, that the Russian Catholic Exarchate is subordinated directly to Rome. So, if the future patriarch Lubomir would take initiative, it will worsen the relations between the Church of Rome and the Ucrainian Catholic Church.

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Originally posted by Crucis:
Why always blame Rome?
Becaues Rome has blocked all other possibilities making laws concerning churches sui iuris as they are.

andreios
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For Diak:

I would like to send you a private massage, but "member's private message mailbox is currently full."

andreios
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Originally posted by Diak:
Do Orientale Dignitas, Orientale Lumen, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Slavorum Apostoli, etc. mean anything? Anything at all?
Diak,

Dunno. Ask our bishops, especially the ones appointed by Rome. :rolleyes: The strength of any chain is only as strong as its weakest link. And if all the links are weak?

Until we get men as bishops ...

None of these 'pie-in-the-sky' fluff-docs mean what they say. Isn't there a Blue Sky law in the church?

I believe the weight of all those pious, meaningless, words still don't add up to the simple quote from the Byzantine Romanian bishop of Canton, who said that, "our mission as Eastern Catholics is to DISAPPEAR." Maybe Rome sees we need help?

Joe

PS: Does anyone sing the Papal Hymn anymore in our churches?

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XB!

Andreios, I emptied out the PM box.

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