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Slava Isusu Christu! Slava Na Viki!

First of all, I have been in the Balkans from as far south as Apolonia and Ardenica to as far North as literally the Ukrainian border in Bucovina (accompanied by a Romanian border guard, may God Bless him), and as far east as Iasi, near the Moldovan border. I thus will say without hesitation that with rare exception that the Orthodox Churches are packed, AND WITH YOUNG PEOPLE! Yes, they may want more from their Church than just liturgical functions and may want more educated clergy providing personal pastoral care, BUT THEY ARE THERE! The biggest enemy there is secularism, imported from the West!

In Cluj, the small former Greek Catholic Church downtown has returned to Catholicism from Orthodoxy, but the large church with the cemetery HAS NOT! Both are building new Churches with Orthodox churches going up all over. I personally worked for the Orthodox Archdiocese and with both Roman and Greek Catholics, as well as Protestants. The social and clinical services of the Orthodox Church are available to all, and in fact work with all. And in Albania, the Diagnostic Clinic of the Orthodox Church in Tirana is a new and wonderful facility utilized by Orthodox, Muslims and Catholics alike (see Nicholas Gage's "He Gave His People Hope" from Parade Magazine).

In October, I'll be going to Russia. For our new Friend from the ROCOR, welcome! By the way, my Grandmother was born in Hoca and my Grandfather in ... Ladomirova.

Dasvidanja, Jordanville!

Christ Is Among Us! Indeed He Is And Ever Shall Be!

Three Cents

[QUOTE]Originally posted by incognitus:
Dear Alexandr,
Nice to hear from you - and thanks for the information. This is a rather "broad Church" forum, so there might be some people on it who for whatever reason dislike Orthodoxy in general and/or the Church Abroad in particular, but these are certainly minority views in this happy-go-lucky crowd. The Church Abroad has been doing magnificent work in several areas of discussion, and we are all the richer (spiritually, that is), for her presence.
Nonetheless, I have a criticism, although not of either Orthodoxy or the Church Abroad. Pride in one's own ethnic origin is admirable, and so is the effort to understand and use the relevant language(s). But please, I implore you, please LEARN at least one of the languages in question - and for that matter learn the English spelling of the words needed to discuss the matter! OK, I'm a purist; I admit it. But disavowing a particular ethnicity while consistently mis-spelling the name of the ethnic/national community in question is unlikely to win friends.
Metropolitan Laurus, as I have good reason to know, is a magnificent linguist and is himself Carpatho-Russian (no apologies to those of the same ethnic background who prefer a different nomenclature: people are entitled to call themselves what they please, within some semblance of reason, and Metropolitan Laurus calls himself a Carpatho-Russian and calls that language Carpatho-Russian); His Eminence is certainly sympathetic to the ideas you offer - and will certainly agree with the suggestion I've just offered you!

If you ever have the opportunity, do go and visit Transcarpathia. You're in for an uncanny experience: the place looks like Pennsylvania!

Incognitus [/QUOT

First, thanks for the welcome! But I am a little confused as to your request thatI learn my mother tongue. As I stated, I was born quite close to the city of Uzhgorod, and spent the first 15 years of my life there. I did not learn the English language until I was in my teens. At home we speak our dialect and Russian, but I also speak Slovak, as well as a little Polish, Ukrainian and the Presov(sp) dialect. If my English transliterations are faulty, I apologize, but I know of no way to post in Cyrillic.

I know Vladika Laurus very well, as he was my rector when I was a seminarian.

As far as visiting Zacarpatskaya Oblast, I have just returned from 6 weeks there, as well as visiting relatives in the Kuban in Russia. Yes, nasha rodina does resemble parts of Pennsylvania.

Alexandr

Dear Aleksandr,

I think Incognitus was referring to me because I accused him of deliberately upsetting the Orthodox on another thread . . .

Alex

Dear Alexandr,

Your point on nationalism is an interesting one but also one that is shared by Russian Orthodox-Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR alike.

On that score, there is full unity between the two!

Our Churches have always suffered alongside their people historically.

And our Churches have tended to become very "national" from a cultural and political point of view.

The Russian Church, since we're talking about guilt, has always been very closely aligned to the Russian state, even when that state persecuted it - under the Tsars and then under the Soviets.

That the Ukrainian Churches are nationalistic - oh, yes.

And there are problems with that - yes, again.

But these problems come with the change in the political situation i.e. Ukrainian independence that, owing to the relation between Church and State there (which is entirely different than in North America), affects the Church.

But the ROCOR and the MP are guilty of:

1) Rather blindly assuming that they themselves do not espouse various forms of Russian imperial chauvinism, including its own imperial take on the "nedilymaya Rus'" idea with respect to the Ukrainian and other Churches.

2) Refusing to acknowledge complicity in past wrongs of Russian Orthodoxy in destroying the Greek-Catholic Church.

3) Support for autocracy in trying to dictate whether the UGCC can or cannot be in Kyiv - everyone one else is. Is Russian Orthodoxy so insecure? It says it fears more from Protestants et al. - no, it fears the UGCC above all!

4) Refusal to assist in the formation of a truly autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church/Patriarchate which would not have the Muscovite big brother's grip around the nape of its neck.

According to statistics, a full 26% of all those defining themselves in Ukraine as "Orthodox" do NOT identify with ANY Orthodox jurisdiction.

Clearly, Ukrainian Orthodox autocephaly can only be had on Moscow's terms and by Moscow's permission (which is not forthcoming).

If Moscow itself waited on permission to declare itself a "patriarchate," it would still be a Metropolitanate.

Yet, the Ukrainian Orthodox cannot have the same privilege.

This is ecclesial Russian Orthodox imperialism that refuses to change or give up.

It shows, to the world, how deeply ingrained ecclesial colonialism is in the Russian Orthodox mentality - and it matters not whether this is the MP or the ROCOR with its hearkening to the age of the Tsars.

For anyone to accuse the Ukrainian churches of espousing national identity and culture, even nationalism without acknowledging the truly negative ideology of colonial imperialism in the Russian Orthodox Church is truly amazing and incredible!

Perhaps all this is unecumenical and I've been accused (by the Administrator especially) of being "anti-Russian."

I believe in stating what I see as the truth, even though it can be harsh.

Our Lord commands us, by His example, to speak the truth, even in the Sanctuary.

The Russians are losing their ground over there slowly and not without a fight.

Every empire comes to an end.

It is time the Russians learned to adapt to the new situation as well.

Alex

Дорогой брат в Христе Александр!

Да благословить нас Господь Бог! Спаси Христос что Вы ответили. Это не совсем трудно писать по-русский или по-украинский на компюторе, но я не знаю какую систему Вы исползуете. Я бы Вас советовал спросить Отца Протоиерея Иоанна в Милваки; он может обяснить как это работает. Отец Протоиерей тоже когда-то жил в Питтсбурзе.
Извините, но Вы не сказали что Вы жили в Ужгороде � Вы сказали что Вы с Порошково. К сожалению, я не знал где Порошково!
Почему я писал что нужно знать родной язык? Ну, на пример, Вы испозовали слово �hytorim�. Что это, и на каком языке? Вы тоже писали что дома мы говорим �our dialect�. Какой говор? Как называется, и. т. д.?
Вы называли Пряшевский говор � а это может-быть не ясный. Кроме нормальнаго словацкаго языка, в Пряшеве можно говорить по-Шарышский, по-украинский и даже еще по Карпато-русский, но это уже редкость в самом городе. Я посетил православную духовную семинарию в Пряшеве несколько лет тому назад, и разговор был интересный � я говорил по-украинский а профессори старалися говорить по-русский. Вы сумеете понять звук разговора.
Что Закарпатьская Украина похожа на Пеннсылванию, я уже писал. Что касаеться Кубан, я ничего не знаю!

Спаси Христос; Ангел Хранитель Вам.

Инкогнит

Dear Alex,
Fear not for me; my friends in the Church Abroad seldom get angry with me (in fact I can't really recall the last time any friend of mine in the Church Abroad was angry at me). But with the blast you just posted, I suggest you stay below the barricades.

Incognitus

Shlomo Zenovia,

Do not beat yourself up too much over this. My point is that we need (that means all of us) think before speaking. All is forgiven.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

I am impressed! You write very well in Russian for an Amerikanitz!
Yes, I do know Otec John Shaw in Milwaukee, and I will ask him what he is using to utilize the cyrillic script on bulletin boards. As to our dialect, remember that this was in the 60's and early 70's that I am referring to. My mother's village spoke a very archaic dialect, quite similar to Old Slavonic, using "az" instead of "ya" for ist person, etc. I learned to read the old script, the "glagolitse" at an early age. Now things are different. Most younger people speak hard Ukranian now, but the older people still use our old dialect's, although, officially, they are frowned upon. Almost all speak some Slovak and Polish as well. And everybody over 30 speaks Russian as well.
As to "hytorim" and "Bisiduyu", there are the 2 dialects still in common use in Pittsburgh for the Russian word Gavaryio. "Ya hytorim po nashemu" (sp) is the Zemplin dialect, spoken by most of the older Pittsburgher's who came in the 2nd wave, from the area around Michalovce , Strazske and Sobrance. "Ya bisiduyu po nashemu" (sp) is the dialect spoken by the earlier wave from the Presov area, and is still heard in the Pittsburgh area. I never learned Ukranian as a boy, because in school, we were taught in Russian, and Ukranian was never spoken in the home. What Ukranian I do know was picked up "na ulitze" as they say.

You bring back many memories for me, as on my last visit, so much has changed, some for the better, but most for the worse. But that is the subject for another post.

As for the Kuban, come and see sometimes. Old Russia still exists there. The towns are patrolled by the red coated Kuban Host, still on horseback. And the word of the Ataman is still law. You won't find McDonald's in the stanitse there! LOL!! The Old Rite is still strong there, and the singing of the women as they come in from the fields still rings in my head! (But if you do go, speak Russian, not Ukrainian! It is a hot topic now!)

I think that I will have to lurk less and post more. This is proving to be quite educational!

Vashe Brat v Xristovom,
Alexandr

Dear Incognitus,

So we can keep everything on even playing field in this section, can we please keep the posts in English only . For those that language is not Russian it would be helpful.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Alexander,
As you have just been so kind as to confirm, I do indeed speak Russian. I shall be less kind and affirm that I flat-out don't believe that you learned glagolitsa, of all things, as a child - that is so unlikely as to be unworthy of discussion. You would have been lucky to have found even one book in a major library printed in glagolitsa. Cyrillic is another matter; that alphabet you very probably did learn as a child.

If your mother's village spoke an archaic dialect, that is even more interesting. Can you give some details?

I don't speak Slovak, nor is it among my ambitions - but I suspect that if people around Pittsburgh are really saying "hytorim" that is at best something derived from the Sotak dialect - it's a transitional dialect between Slovak and Carpatho-Russian. But you may be right; Zemplin is a bit strange.

The use of "az" catches my attention -that's still the case in modern Bulgarian but I had not run across it in anything resembling modern Russian or modern Ukrainian. My suspicion would be that the villagers regained it from Church-Slavonic.

I have a friend in Pittsburgh who is quite an expert in such dialects and would probably enjoy meeting you, but I'm not about to mention his name on the Forum. Be on the alert for a strange message that might reach you.

"Besiduyu" I'm well familiar with - it's derived from "besedovat'" - or, one might say, both share a common derivation.

Then again, even Pittsburgh English is a trifle, ah, idiosyncratic. There's a society that studies the stuff.

There is a dialect whose speakers refer to it as "Slavish" (not pronounced "slavish", although it probably should be) - so far as I'm aware it exists only in New Jersey and is probably dying rapidly there.

For pity's sake, please learn how to spell the term Ukrainian: that's U K R A I N I A N - correctly; the people to whom it applies consider the mis-spelling offensive.

Oddly enough, in the later years of the USSR the Ukrainian Republic at least claimed to be interested in research into the dialects of Transcarpathia - I'm told that they published some things, and collected a lot more at the Academy in Kyiv. Someday I must go look.

Would love to go and see the Kuban sometime - but beware; there really are some honest-to-goodness Ukrainians thereabouts.

MacDonald's I avoid anywhere.


Intriguing - I ran across a recording of Old-Ritualists from Romania doing a service or two. Funny; one of the vowels was consistently pronounced in the Carpatho-Russian fashion. I'm still wondering what that might mean.

So please acquire Cyrillic for your e-mail program - it really can be done and it's well worth the small bother. The only problem arises when one's correspondent doesn't have his own machine set to read the stuff. I should know; I sent something the other day to a friend and his computer read my posting in, of all things, Chinese ideographs!

Spasi Khristos!

Incognitus

Dearest Incognitus,

My blast is nothing by comparison to others, from others.

We don't even need to agree to disagree. We just do.

I said what I, and many others like me, affirm and have always affirmed. Many of them suffered and died as a result.

But this has gotten way too melodramatic.

Vozdrastviye - and God bless you always!

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by incognitus:
[QB] Dear Alexander,
I shall be less kind and affirm that I flat-out don't believe that you learned glagolitsa, of all things, as a child - that is so unlikely as to be unworthy of discussion. You would have been lucky to have found even one book in a major library printed in glagolitsa. Cyrillic is another matter; that alphabet you very probably did learn as a child.


Dear Incognitus,
Do you always come off as so, for lack of a better term, abrasive? As far as the Glagolitse, the father of my Grandfather was an Orthodox priest and my Grandfather was a deacon and the brother of his was a priest. As Orthodox in the Austro-Hungarian Empire could not communicate with Russia, our service books came from the Serbian Church. My Dzedyshka had an old Glagolitse Evangelia, printed I believe, in Zagreb, and it was from this book that I learned the script. If you look into it, Glagolitse was used until the 1920's in Croatia. At any rate, I wish that I had that old Evangelia, but it was buried with my mother's uncle, the priest. I remember Dzedyshka telling me that it came from the "White Croats", but I never did learn more.

But linguistic's, although interesting, is not my area of speciality. My concerns in joining this group was to try to learn more about "the people from the next town", the Greek Catholics. I know many Greek Catholic priests, and if you can't find your priest, call my house, he's probably here looking at my icons!

And Alex, I am not ignoring your posts, but I am thinking of how best to answer you without being argumentative, or at least broaching the subject in a manner of a brother. When I can answer you with the attention that you deserve, I will. Dzedyshka always said, "think twice, speak once".
Good advice with a topic that moves people to passion so easily.

Alexandr

p.s. I will spell Ukrainian correctly now. I don't believe that I have ever had to write it in English prior to my original posting. Prostite menya if I have offended anyone with my error.

Dear Alexandr,
G. I. Kh. C. B. p. m. g.

Abrasive? Who, me?

Glagolitic script was still used for at least a few purposes by the Roman Catholics in Dalmatia as recently as the very early 1960s. I tried several times to obtain a Glagolitic Missal, but finally decided I could be driven crazy in easier ways (obviously, I've succeeded in the latter goal). Burying the Gospel Book with the priest was certainly an act of great reverence - but given the shortage of books at the time and in the place, I shall offer no further comment on it! I'm intrigued, though, by the implication that this was an Orthodox Gospel Book. Must check with some people who are in a better position to know of such editions than I am.

I did just run into, of all things, an Old-Rite service book printed at Pochaiv in the days when the Greek-Catholics had the monastery. There are other indications that Greek-Catholic printing houses were printing books for the Old Rite Church in Bukovina, but the Pochaiv connection is particularly interesting. Much later - in the 1920s, to be a bit more precise - the L'viv Stauropegion Brotherhood published some Russian Orthodox service-books for Metropolitan Evlogy (Paris), including a beautiful Naprestolnoie Evangeliie. By that time no Christian books were being printed (at least not above ground) in Russia.

In the days of Austria-Hungary, the religious policy of Hungary differed significantly from the religious policy of Austria - Austria actually paid for the printing of Orthodox service-books in Slavonic (a few of them from the days of Franz Joseph are still available after all these years). Hungary was (and is) much more chauvinist than Austria, and was correspondingly intolerant of both Orthodoxy and anything Slav.

The reference to the "White Croats" is quite interesting - one theory about the Carpatho-Russians is that they are derived from a group of White Croats who got lost, so to speak, in the Carpathian Mountains.

Thanks for undertaking to correct that spelling error - while the Ukrainians on the Forum are well known for tolerance of differing ethnic views (!), that particular spelling error has been known to provoke, ah, . . . oh, yes, here's the word . . . "abrasive" responses.

Спаси Христос. Простите меня Христа ради!

И&#1085когнит

I would like to say that in 1988, when I converted to the OCA, I was told to "stay away from the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile" later to become ROCOR. Having been in the Marine Corps I'm one that wants to know why I am to "stay away" I began reading and re-reading, my own son, James Michael was baptized by Fr. Victor Potapov at the Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Washington DC, a beautiful cathedral indeed. I met and loved Mrs. Tatiana Prujan who has long since reposed, my understanding now is, it takes four people to do her job at the kiosk! I met His Grace Bishop Daniel of the Old Rite, who by his humility taught me about the Old Rite and I have a tremendous love for the Old Rite. Upon moving to CA, I met Fr. Vladimir Anderson, whose Godfather is the late Fr. Seraphim Rose and Fr. Vladimir met and knew his grace, Bishop Nektary, who has reposed and I've venerated the relics of St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco several times and Holy Virgin Russian Orthodox Cathedral is in my opinion the most beautiful of all the Orthodox Churches I have been in. In 1992, I met His Grace Archbishop Anthony of San Francisco, who is in my own belief a saint, just waiting for ROCOR to glorify him and I hope one day ROCOR does. Archbishop Anthony once told my wife and I that he is a monk, then priest, then Archbishop and he also delighted in taking part in the Kliros which was the first time I had seen any priest or Archbishop do this. Also the cathedral can be seen crossing the Golden Gate, I have to pay attention to driving, but I look for the cupolas, and lastly their is Fr. Andronik, who is a humble and good natured manager of the Holy Virgin Cathedral Bookstore, at least he was the last time I was in there, the Cathedral and Bookstore is located on Geary Blvd, and if one is up for a walk, you can stay at the Geary Parkway Motel and enjoy a walk to the Cathdedral. Back in the late 80's early 90's I was always told ROCOR is "uncanonical" I had alot of homework to do and I found that everything I read that came out of Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, NY actually helped me see that indeed ROCOR in my opinion is "canonical" I would also like to suggest the book, "The Law of God" by Archpriest Seraphim Slobodskoy for study at home and school even!

Incognitus, I wonder if you have come across the Glagolitic Mass by Leos Janacek, a 20th century Czech classical composer? I have never heard it, but there are recordings out there- somewhere.