www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings 1 John 3, 2

Sisters and brothers in our Risen Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God,

I have a question. Please, could you share with this soul your thoughts regarding the following words:

(1 John 3, 2, KJV)

The entire text, not only the marked words.

Thank you for your benevolence.

Unworthy, Marian +

Any thought would be so welcome. I feel that it is a very important word here in 1 John 3, 2.

Dear brother:

Hoping not to say something wrong here. What I think about 1 John 3:2, complementing it with 1 John 3:1 and 3:3 is that in this world we know that we are sons of God, because of His benevolence and love for us. However we are still imperfect for we are sinful and have to fight in our lives to reach that spiritual perfection. We have seen God in human form in Our Lord Jesus Christ, but we, humans, still have to face Our Lord in all his Glory, as clean souls, and only then we will be able to know what we really are, as sons of God.

Complementing the above with 1 John 3:3, having the hope of seeing God we purify ourselves to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is, so we may be worthy to see Him.

Just my unworthy thoughts.

In Christ.

Bernardo

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love. I Corinthians 13:12-13 [RSV]

A common expression used by Christians in our society is "Keep your eyes upon, Jesus." There is also a song with these words.

This expression does not mean that we can now see Jesus with our eyes. It does mean that we try to see Jesus with our hearts. It means we try to follow his example even when it is counter-cultural and not a popular thing to do. We try to love as Jesus did even when it is difficult, and we try to follow the Way of Jesus by doing the will of the Father even though we are sinners in need of metanoia. (repentance and change of life). And we try to think how Jesus would handle a situation or how he would react. In other words, we focus on His life, in order to learn how better to live our own.

I think the words of St. Paul in the scripture above expresses this well. We don't actually see face to face now, but only in a mirror dimly.

May the joy of the Lord Jesus Christ be our strength!

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us sinners.

sorry about the duplicate posts...I went to add and pushed the quote instead. Whoops...so two above are much alike. Thanks.

Porter.

Porter,

Please PM me regarding something sent to me, through you so I can clarify some things. I would appreciate you help.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Marian�

I have very little time now, so I am sorry I did not respond sooner. We both look forward to November - and I shall be with you in spirit.

I get home from my new job and am very tired. Sometimes I go right to bed. I am not young anymore.

Let me see if I can help you.

John, is the most mystical of the gospel writers - but that does not mean he is difficult to understand as the mysteries he speaks of have all been given to us for 2000 years now. These mysteries - belong to us Christians and we are raised with then so we can take them for granted and we should not look for anything further or confusing. What was once a mystery - has been revealed in the person (life and words) of Jesus Christ, his apostles and early church. But that is not to say that we do not confuse things from time to time.

First, and foremost, to John - Jesus is the �Word� which God speaks and which brings about creation at every moment. We might think that God spoke once - at the beginning of time - and ever after that the creation runs like the hands of a clock. But that is a view brought over from Greek mythology by many of the early Greek fathers - and it is a view which Councils have rejected.

For John (John 1 1-3) Jesus is resurrected - and his resurrected nature is the Word - but it is better said the �Logos�. Because Logos (John takes it from Greek philosophy) has a meaning which we should understand before we call it �the Word�.

Logos is the original pattern of something. In Jewish Old Testament thought - it is the 'first fruits' meaing not so much by way of time - but by way of being the best and most perfect. The unblemished.

Imagine that you are an artist and you are about to paint a wonderful painting. You would sit yourself down and search your imagination for an image to paint. You wait - to be inspirited. Before too long - from the darkness of nothing - you have an imagine in your mind of, perhaps, a sail boat moving swift on the water with its sails billowing from the wind. This - image - you see in the imagination of your mind - is the original pattern which your hands and strokes of paint - with transfer - to the material of paint and canvas.

This - is Logos.

It is a pattern. An image. An original - compared to all copies of it.

Since it comes from Greek philosophy, let us not be afraid to bring Plato into it. For Plato - it is the idea. That which is perfect. For example - we have in our mind right now - the perfect apple. Round - robust - ripe and red with shine. No spots and no marks. No bruises and no discoloration. It is the perfect apple. Yet such and apple does not exist. But yet we measure every apple we see - but the image of the ideal apple we may have in our mind.

This too is Logos. An original pattern - without flaw.

In Genesis, God speaks - and what he speaks is Logos. He speaks - himself. In as much as the nature of God is - perfection - God speaks himself - from himself - out into creation. And so every thing in creation - is an image of God in some way. This is why Paul says that everyone can know God by the things he has created.

Nature - contemplates God. It has no choice in the matter. The green grass that grows - is an image of something that is within God. The trees that grow - the waters - the rain - all these things do what they do and are as they are because they do and are as they see into God. All things of nature reflect (as a mirror reflects) something of God. Therefore each thing in nature takes the pattern of this logos - in as much as its ability to know it (the capacity of its contemplation).

The sum total of all this contemplation - is the Logos. So you see the Logos is within everything - and everything has its be-ing and it life - from this Logos.
This is, astonishingly, like a hologram. For a true hologram - has within it a 3D image. One image. But if you break the hologram into 5 parts - each of the 5 parts with contain the same full and complete image. So each part contains the Logos and all parts together contain the Logos. I hope I have not confused you.

And so when we say that the bible is the Word of God - we say that - and we mean - that scriptures is an image, an imperfect copy, a reflection - a witness to the actions of God - and the witness who testifies at court - should not be confused with what the witness is telling about. For the telling of a witness is always imperfect to the event which he is testifies about. So we should not make an idol out of scriptures (and perhaps that is why we have almost no original copies).

So by all this I mean to say, that when John tells us that the resurrected body of Jesus Christ is - Logos� what we understand by today�s terms is - the resurrected body of Jesus Christ is - what we call Providence. That - reason - and pattern - which governs the entire world of creation and all events at every moment.

Neither our senses of body, nor of mind (spirit), can perceive - Providence. Providence is not an object - that we can see it or touch it. It is an - action. We only know it by way of the evidence of it.

Now enters - faith.

We see things about us - and we see events take place - and it seems to us that some events are good and some events are bad. We see that the weather causes many things. We see that people cause many things. We see that the economy causes many things. And we try like hell - to recognize the laws and rule which govern things and events - and to have our minds draw out from this apparent chaos - some organization - some higher cause - some higher pattern.

We find it difficult to believe - that God - has total control of all the events that happen to us each day. We would rather believe the news reports - TV news casts - and our chat with people about today�s news events.

The saint, who cooperates with Providence day by day, comes to know that the events in his life are - not chaotic - nor a battle between a good God and an evil god - but all events which happen to the saint are entirely directed and controlled by God at every moment.

What is the diffrence between us - who are not saints - and the man who is a saint?

A bit of faith - that God is really in control - even when it does not seem to be that way.

There is no doubt - that God is - entirely in control, as John 1 1-3 tells us . Not one thing - or one event - come into be-ing at any moment - except that God Will its by his Logos. Yet - we do not experience that to be true. Yet we do know it - is true.

Our faith - is in steps. Contrary to what some may thing - out faith does - nothing in the way of action. We can not build it up by our efforts. If we talk ourselves in to grand and great faith - we are merely fooling ourselves. Hoping to save - ourselves - by our own efforts. Real faith - is a simple thing - which we can compare to a child having faith in his father or mother. In a sense� it is black or white. Either there or not.

If we cooperate with God - by way of living by our own conscience (that is where God speak to us inside) within the different events that come to us each day� (this is where God speaks to us from the outside) � than God himself will grow our faith. This is really a simple thing to understand�. Because we just simply come to find out, by experience, that God is acting within our daily lives. We begin to see the evidence. We begin to see the signs of God as he speaks to us through the events of our life - which events had seemed so ordinary - before. We begin to be aware of a coordination (for lack of a better word) between the events of our conscience - to - daily events which take place to us around us.

This is how e become sons of God. We are generated into a new man - by our cooperation with God speaking in our conscience and God acting through the events of our daily life. You might ask �What is generated into a new man?� and the answer to that is - our person - our personality.

Personality is the only - thing - we take with us when we die. However it has been shaped here, in this life, it becomes our �house� within which we live for eternity. When the time of change - is over (the time we are in these bodies of and subject to the changes of world events) - there shall be no more changes. We are either propelled deeper and deeper into God for infinity - or we are propelled deeper into what every we had chosen that was not God.

�Beloved, now we are the sons of God� means we live daily life in a cooperation with conscience and Providence.

�and what we shall be - we can not yet see�� means it is impossible for us to know what the final state of our holiness will be. A man can not know - what has not yet been completed. So any idea which we imagine of our own holiness - is simply our own imagination and nothing more. We can not guess - what we shall be like - when God is done with us.

�But we do know that, when we see him, we shall be like him.� This is very wide - because - we shall be like the Logos himself - more and more - as the Logos created his pattern (himself) within us.

This, of course, has nothing to do with our body nature. John - is not speaking on that subject here. John is simply saying that our own person - shall be like his person. Our own personality - shall be like his personality.

We shall see - with the eyes of our soul (as it were). �We shall know him as he is.�

We can know Providence (the risen Christ) by way of the evidence of his action in the world - and by way of his �voice� within our conscience (�I will come make my home with you - and be with you always�)� but when the time of our formation has ended - and we �slip this mortal coil� - when senses of body and physiological mind no longer interfere - we shall know him by way of direct in-tuition (in-teaching) which is called - infusion - by the mystical writer. It is a knowledge we will not have to labor for - it will be freely given and freely received - without fog of senses.

This is all I can say without stepping into areas which can be misunderstood.

I hope this helps.

-ray

Dear Brothers Bernardo and Ray, beloved Sister Mary Josephine,

Thank you from my heart. I will be meditating on your words.

Tomorrow in the dawns I go in a pilgrimage for a week. I will visit some monasteries, together with my mother, in the North of Romania.

May God bless your good souls.

Marian

I thought it good to make clear that there is a certain building up of faith that we do - in concert with Providence.

The building up into a metal state of "faith" which is not good - can be seen in some of the extreme Christian cults.

It is goood to walk - with the Lord and not good to run ahead of Providence.

But of course we should not be afraid of the mistakes we are bound to make along the way - otherwise - we hesitate to walk at all.

-ray

Marian,

Thanks for posting what I thought was a very thoughtful question. May your pilgrimage be good, safe, and wonderful for both you and your mother, Ivanca.

Ray,

So, you have a new job! Hopefully it is good. God is good to answer prayers. Amen.

Porter

(chuckle) not yet 'good'.

I am working like a horse for small pay. I made more money at are 20 than I am currently making. Things are difficult and I am discovering where my artritis is. Both feet and hands. Not too much - just enough to make me long to get my shoes off and put my feet up.

Apparently, my time of humility, is not over yet. The potter's clay is being remolded. The clay does not like it (chuckle) but 'this too shall pass'.

I hang in there. My faith may be blind right now - but "Lord where shall we go? Who else is there?"

I wait.

-ray

QUOTE from RayK (

chuckle) not yet 'good'.

[I am working like a horse for small pay. I made more money at are 20 than I am currently making. Things are difficult and I am discovering where my artritis is. Both feet and hands. Not too much - just enough to make me long to get my shoes off and put my feet up.

Apparently, my time of humility, is not over yet. The potter's clay is being remolded. The clay does not like it (chuckle) but 'this too shall pass'.

I hang in there. My faith may be blind right now - but "Lord where shall we go? Who else is there?"

I wait.

-ray [UNQUOTE]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chuckling back. Well, maybe it is good it is not too good..since if you got too busy we would miss your reflections here on "Focus on Scripture." Besides you can always join us with your shoes off and your feet up. :p

Mary Jo

Ray,

I find it hard to follow your statements. In some aspects you are correct, but in others you are seriously wrong. St John the Theologian does not call the resurrected body of Jesus Christ "Logos". You seem to imply that Christ (or rather his body) became the Logos after his resurrection. This aspect of your post comes very close to a denial of the hypostatic union. St John identifies the Logos as Jesus Christ quite some time before the resurrection, in fact from eternity past: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1,14)

My statements! Hard to follow!??

Well that has never happened before!

(kidding of course).

I am not willing to raise this to a precise theological level. Few things cause needless division than - that exercise. I know some theology but it is not my area � so I will only go so deep into it and no more.

Some terms�

Son of God = divine nature
Son of Man = human nature
Christ = messiah (the union of divine and human nature)

The church suggests that John here is referring to Christ when he says �Logos�. And the term 'Christ' implies the union of divine nature and human nature - so us to the term 'Christ' seems to imply including some form of human nature to the Logos.

The Word is God.
The Logos is God.
The Christ is God.

Hypostatic union = one person subsisting with two natures.

I think John was acutely aware that Jesus had two natures (divine/human) and after the events of the gospel he would never think of Jesus in any other way except that union of divine and human natures.

John experience Jesus� human nature in two ways. And of course � this experience of the human nature of Jesus was the paramount event of John�s life.

At first � John experienced Jesus as a man who was born, suffered, and died, who had a normal human body that was - in every way like our own � and subject to the limits of time and location. Born, suffered, died.

Later he experienced the risen and resurrected body of Christ � which ascended into heaven (became spiritualized and is now beyond the capabilities of our sense perception).

Of course it is only one and the same human body � changed in attributes.

The church tells us that his human body (in the state or condition before the resurrection) was not a phantom. It was real and had all normal human limitations as ours does. �Like us in every way�. Totally human.

Therefore: it was limited to a historic time span and is not present to our senses � today. It came that way once within time and will not come in that way again.

However � his resurrected body (the same body but changed in attributes) ascended � �into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God�.

While it is all one body � and the same body � with only a change and difference in attributes � it is the ascended and resurrected condition which is not bound by time and location. The un-resurrected condition was bound by time and location.

So I ask you�
--------
Q: In which condition � is the human body of Jesus � eternal - without limits of time and location?

A: In its resurrected and ascended � condition.

So it is pretty clear (John having experience Jesus human nature under both conditions or states) that when John thinks of that human nature as eternal (present to all time and not subect to the limits of time and location) he thinks of it as resurrected and ascended.

Rather than thinking my statements might come, in your mind, to a denial of the eternal nature of the hypostatic union - it is the eternal (always) element of hypostatic union which suggests the human nature component of it is that resurrected and ascended condition.

If you think of time as only sequential � in a Newtonian way � you will have trouble with the idea that the resurrected humanity of Jesus (which is not an object our senses may know) existed before Moses � and at the same time his limited human nature existed.

But if you think of time as flowing from the moment of resurrection � when and where the eternal and time � touched � and were joined into one thing � you may understand how the state of his limited human condition depended upon the limiting of his resurrected condition. In other words � being a willful limiting of his resurrected nature � produces what we experienced as his limited human nature � even at the same time his resurrected nature still exists.

Let me give you an example� now clear your head.

1) If Bob (a man who does not have the natural ability to fly) decides to fly � his willing it � can not make him fly in the air. He does not become what he wills to be.

2) If Timothy (a man who can naturally fly in the air) decides not to fly in the air � he will not fly in the air - and his limitation (of not flying) is caused by his own will. He does become what he voluntarily wills to be.

So it makes senses that his body in resurrected condition � present at all times of past and will be present at all times of future (yet unknowable to our senses) � has always existed at every moment of time � past � present � and future. And there is no problem with Jesus willfully limiting the condition and attributes of that human body � so as to �come down from heaven� into time and location. Such a willful limitation condition does not negate the �always� existence of his resurrected nature.

(in the same way that a man who can fly but decides not to fly � still has the ability to fly even while he decided not to use it).

I make note that the church (and I am speaking of legitimate authority and not of some type of majority opinion) has not defined if the Logos of John includes the human nature of Jesus or not. She has left that untouched � so we are free to have opinion and speculate.

It is my opinion that when John was speaking about the Logos � he was thinking of Jesus in hypostasis (union of divine and human natures) and the condition of that human nature component was - eternal (timeless). Since John can not think of something he had not experienced � and necessity can only think of something of which he has some personal experience of � it is the resurrected condition of the human body of Jesus that John had already experienced � that he had in his mind.

You see?

Rather than leading to deny the hypostasis � my opinion confirms the �always� of that hypostasis � and predicated his limited human condition while �on earth� � upon the reality of that hypostasis to be component of its human nature in a resurrected condition.

Now think � if Jesus resurrected human nature � ascended into heaven and is seated at the �right hand of God� � we must remove from that concept any limits of � time and location. Plus � we must assign to it � all authority and power to carry our the will of his father. For to sit at the �right hand� of a king � is to be the one who puts into effect all decisions that the king may make. This implies that the resurrected human nature of Jesus is included in the creation of all things and all events. God the father is the �will� of Providence while it is the Logos (union of divine nature and resurrected human nature) which is the �action� of Providence.

As far as I know I have contradicted nothing that the church tells that us we must believe � and I have echoed and confirmed many of the things the church has suggested and many noted spiritual writers as well as John and Paul � and I have filled in a few of the gaps (which remain my personal opinion of which no one is obligated to believe).

If you know of a third state of condition of his human nature - that satisfies the condition of hypostasis always - let me know. Otherwise I assume only two states - normal and resurrected - one of which MUST satisfy the demands of hypostasis. It is obvious - which one. Resurrected.

If what I wrote is hard to understand � that is par the course for me. If it is easy to mis-understand � that is my lack of ability to explain well.

I look forward to your reply to continue this discussion and this opourtunity to sort it out.

Cheers.
-ray