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Dear Father Deacon Edward,

Thank you for your gentle admonishments as always!

FYI, I visited the shrine of St Edward the Confessor in London and was privileged to touch and venerate it.

I always visit whenever I'm in London.

"Whenever I pass by a church

I stop in for a visit;

So that when I'm finally carried in,

The Lord won't say, 'Who is it?'"

Cheers,

Alex

Okay, okay...!

First, words like "non sequitur" and "sundry" aren't crass!

Second, Mr. Badal's salvation is absolutely not secured. This isn't a personal attack on Mr. Badal - Lord knows I don't know what is in his heart - but rather stating that we as Catholics and Orthodox believe that no one's salvation is ever secured!

I can see how that was perhaps misunderstood; I was trying to make the point that I find it rude and insulting on a Catholic/Orthodox Forum for anyone to say that his salvation is secured, which we know is not the case! And frankly I find it offensive to our Lord and our mission on earth to work out our salvation in fear in trembling, not in some false sense of security.

None of that is crass or rude...I don't see for what I have to apologize. (And it's not like I'm a stranger to apologizing).

But, if I do apologize for anything, it is the rather confrontational nature of my post. I am sorry for that, although I think that too has been greatly exagerrated. I don't however, find any problem with the substance of what I wrote.

Third, not that it matters and I know it's nitpicking, but it's Teen of the Incarnate Logos, not of the Incarnation. And no, that was not meant to be rude!

Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

In fact, Pastor Badal at NO point ever said anything about whether or not we will have salvation through Christ as mediated by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

He did not call us heretics or anything of the sort.

In a religious discussion involving people of other faith traditions, we do not speak as you did - using personal invective.

Our salvation is in the Lord's Hands and we disagree on this or that point, to be sure.

And I believe that evangelical Catholic movements, including the one involving Paul Martin, a well-known member of the Charismatic Renewal, do indeed talk about "assurance."

For me, when I live in the state of Grace through repentance and faith in Christ (which should be a daily thing) by means of prayer, and participation in the Mystical life of the Church via the Liturgy, the Mysteries/Sacraments et alia, I really do believe that I have an assurance of salvation that would be absent were I to be outside of a participation in the Body of Christ.

Rather than be an excuse to "slack off," it should be something that spurs us on to greater growth in and union with our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

As Father Deacon Edward said, we are "saved (by what Christ did on the Cross) being saved (in the here and now by our participation in the Body of Christ that is the Church through our response with its passive 'faith' and active 'works of love' components) and will be saved (when we stand before the awesome Judgement Seat of Christ when He comes again).

John Wesley himself had problems, as Prof. Dan said, with "extreme Calvinism" and so he opposed it all his life.

For my part, the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary, an Evangelical Protestant monastic community, provides many insights into how the Protestant Reformers themselves understood faith and works etc.

In fact, there is no one monolithic "Protestant" theology that has been handed down from the Reformers in an unaltered state.

The reading of the young Luther, for instance, is what has led Lutherans back to the recitation of the Rosary, Marian devotion and the veneration of the Saints etc.

One Anglican priest I knew was asked by an Evangelical leaflet-distributor at university about emphasizing Scripture over Tradition.

He replied, "How can you divide the two? The written and unwritten sources of the one Word of God?"

Those Anglicans . . .

Take it from me, a beekeeper, that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!

Alex

:p

Dan,

You probably know it as the second favorite olymic sport of the Slav. It's called the Passive-Aggressive Pole Vault. :p

Eli

Sounds very dangerous and potentially quite painful.

CDL

For Eli and Alex,

The current world record holder for indoor (6.15 meters) and outdoor (6.14 meters) is the great Ukrainian pole vautler Serhiy Bubka. He was also the first person ever to vault over 6 meters.

Dr. Eric

Former High School pole vaulter (who barley made it over 3 meters! )

I didn't know that Poles grew that tall these days.

Alex will be thrilled.

I am impressed at 3 meters.

Hoppalong Toft

Eli, *this* is the Pole you use when you wouldn't touch something with a *ten* foot Pole........i.e., 3.3 meters.

Oh. I thought THAT was a Lithuanian.

Eli

Given the tenor of the current discussion, it's a good thing I was a high jumper in high school (yes, they had high schools even back then). My best jump was 6' even (one time, never even came close after that).

Fr. Deacon Edward

I believe that Mr. Bubka is also Catholic!

I am going into the shelter, since I expect that statement to cause the lightning strikes to begin.

Alex,

I still would contend that at no time does one ever know with 100% certainty that he will be saved. I don't understand why it's so confrontational to say that.

Logos Teen

Matters of perception.

Joel Badal called you on it because it upset his carefully crafted equilibrium that is predicated on the certitude that he is saved. You confronted a shibboleth not a man, but it is often difficult to separate the two.

I have been confrontational here in calling a shibboleth that which Joel would call faith. You see?

In his eyes, my faith is false. In my eyes his faith is a shibboleth. Do we need to keep saying that to one another. No. There is nothing to be gained by that. So we politely talk around it. As long as the talk is substantial, that's ok.

You believe that his certitude is false. I believe that his certitude is overstated. He believes that he and his certitude are justified. See? Three very different perspectives.

You don't have to say it. It is an integral part of your false [perspective] faith, and Joel knows that it's there, but the very fact that he calls it uncharitable should tell you that he is not as certain as he'd like to be.

So be kind and don't rub it in. It isn't necessary, for precisely the same reason that you can truthfully, in faith, say that salvation is not certain. Reprobation is no more certain.

Let the man live his life. God calls us. We are here to point to what we know to be truth, and then get out of the way. If you can't help, don't hinder. Rubbing Joel's nose in a truth is not going to help. It will only provide him with an opportunity to resist even harder.

So from my perspective you are not so much uncharitable as you are overbearing :p

Perspective. Let God do the hard part. You just point and get out of the way.

Eli