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To the forum:

It looks like everyone went toward the statement of my assurance of salvation, that is wholly of Christ. I believe with out a shadow of a doubt that my salvation is secure. I do not have to work at it. Faith is only what is required by God. Because of my faith I bear fruit or good works. However, doing good works will not save an individual.

The book of James attacks the creditials of false teachers. True believers are marked by their fruit or good works. James does not contradict Paul's view of Justification.

I was upset at the last poster for his crude comment. I realize there are different views. Yet, this does not give us the right to use improper ways of communicating it.

His mode of communicating was only truly improper because you took offense and there are those here who are willing to protect you from distress. You should be grateful rather than rubbing the young man's nose in something that was, in his mind, a simple statement of fact and not a condemnation of you as a man or as a believer.

Now you have gone too far, in my eyes.

Eli

Eli,

Your post a couple posts ago was accurate, and perhaps I was a bit overbearing, and for that I apologize to Mr. Badal.

Joel,

You must know that although you say things like "I do not have to work at [my faith]," etc. that no one here believes that to even approximate truth or reality.

The fact is, you believe that to be true, and that's ok. This is, however, an Apostolic Christian forum and you know very well we don't believe the same thing; it strikes me as a bit odd, at best, for you to continue to say things like that here. It's kind of like an American going to the Far East and saying things like, "Forks and spoons and knives are better than chopsticks...using silverware is the only real way to eat food...Forks and spoons and knives are better than chopsticks...using silverware is the only real way to eat food." Besides being a little frustrating and redundant, one wonders about the sensitivity behind the statement given the environment.

Anyway that might be a poor analogy but you get the idea.

Logos Teen

Teen,

I don't know if he gets it or not but when one says that "I don't have to work out my faith" and St. Paul says that one must "work out ones salvation with fear and trembling" and "faith without works is dead" then I know to believe St. Paul. Let us leave it at that.

CDL

As St. James indicated, faith without works is nothing. The two do seem to be inseparable. It's been my experience that those who claim faith and do no works, are like that fig tree that didn't bear fruit and got cursed. Interesting that Martin Luther removed the book of James from the Bible because he didn't like its emphasis on works. Now wasn't that prideful and presumptious? That's the problem behind reading scripture and deciding for yourself what's valid and what's not. Some come to think they know more than the apostles.

Dear Teen Logo,

It is certainly not confrontational to discuss Protestantism and Catholicism re: salvation etc.

It IS confrontational to tell someone to their face about it. That's all, and Fr. Deacon Edward has affirmed this in his role as Moderator here. I've got nothing to add there.

Alex

Dear Pastor Badal,

Thank you for your response and, again, I'm sorry that we here get personal and confrontational.

However, as the Bible says, when we come to serve the Lord, let us "prepare our hearts for temptation!"

For me, I think the great Evangelical scholar, William Barclay, said it best with respect to faith and works (I love his collections of prayers and bible commentaries!)

(Of course, we are NOT talking about the works of the Law of Moses which is what St Paul ALWAYS talked about when he affirmed that we cannot be save by "works" - meaning the Old Covenant).

He once said that God offers us His salvation and we can only respond to it in order to receive it.

Then he goes on to say something that I believe would be agreeable to everyone, Catholic and Protestant.

He says that faith and works are the "passive" and "active" components of our One Response to God's redeeming love.

And St Paul did write about "faith that worketh through love."

To us Catholics and Orthodox, it seems that classical Protestantism and extreme Calvinism seems to be saying, when it says, "faith alone" that works of charity have no place in the "equation of salvation."

This is also what concerned greatly John Wesley and the Methodist/Arminian and Pentecostal Holiness movements.

Faith and trust in Christ cannot be separated from our active life in Him. Grace is obtained through faith, yes, but by means of hearing the Word of God, prayer, both private and public with the Church, the sacramental life through baptism and Holy Communion especially, fasting, constant confession of our sins to God and to one another.

There is and must be the element of "struggle" in our spiritual lives.

In the book, the "Cross and the Switchblade," Pastor Wilkinson wanted to make a real difference in the lives of the street people he felt called to minister to.

So he began to set aside two hours daily, from midnight until 2:00 am, for prayer.

And he describes his struggles with that discipline and how the Holy Spirit helped him overcome them and helped transform him into an effective agent for spiritual change in the lives of people who needed the Presence of God in their lives.

That is something that speaks strongly to us Catholics and Orthodox.

And we Catholics and Orthodox can and do have a moral certainty about our salvation. But we believe that we cannot have an absolute certainty and nowhere does the Bible affirm that - again, it is a matter of interpretation and there is no tradition of such an interpretation prior to the Reformation.

In fact, if anything, the doctrine of absolute certainty of one's salvation and by faith alone etc. can be traced, as some say and I agree, to the extreme Augustinianism of the Reformers who accepted a view of human nature whereby they saw Original Sin as completely ravaging us and leaving us TOTALLY without grace etc.

Even AFTER the experience of "being saved," Protestantism affirms that our sins remain within us, they are not "blotted out" but that Christ's Grace simply "covers them over" - which is Martin Luther's understanding of a psalmic verse that is really stretched to the limit and beyond.

Thus, as the Evangelical Anglican Stott affirms, Protestant Christian life is a life of "penal servitude" (since our sins remain but are covered over by Grace) where we fulfill our duties but are not entitled to anything for them given our state etc.

This is an interpretation of Scripture that, at no time, ever existed in the history of the Christian Church prior to the Reformation.

For me, it is a sullen, depressive view of salvation (which logically asserts that our salvation is by "faith alone").

Instead, I follow the interpretation of the Church of the New Testament (for whom the New Testament was written) which was once both Catholic and Orthodox - and the Fathers thereof.

These preach a life in Christ in which our sins are completely blotted out and we are transformed, made "partakers of the Divinity" of Christ through the "Man Jesus Christ" and are open to the experience on Mt Tabor.

For us, it is not so much the issue whether we feel we are saved for eternity right now - in fact, what is the spiritual issue is our life in Christ that begins now in a dynamic way and continues on throughout eternity (and will continue even in Heaven).

We may always fall away from our salvation - indeed, St Paul writes to Churches to chastise them for numerous serious sins - and God Who is our Divine Lover is also the greatest respecter of our individual, free will.

And our free will is also a gift of Divine Grace.

As the Protestant-Catholic ecumenical commission once said, "God is so loving and Good that He wants His Grace to be our merits."

Cheers!

Alex

believe me, I understand Mr. Badal's point of view. it is true that is the grace of God through Christ that is the source of salvation, if it was just a matter of works, then Christ died for nothing. the question is, if it is of works, just how much works are needed, and then what kind of works. it seems dangerous to presume that any sinful mortal is in the position to determine the answer. Mr. Badal is also correct in saying that works come through the life of a believer in Christ, it is the faith in Christ that leads to good works, not the other way around. however, I sense that when Mr. Badal says that he does not have to work for his salvation, I have heard that mantra before, it can be seen as a crack against Catholics and Orthodox who seek to testify to their love of the Lord through works. there are those who see someone doing good works who will then say "he is trying to get to heaven by his works" how do you know that? are you God? the "just believe" school is quite convenient for those who are interested in themselves and see no obligation to follow the injunction of Micah 6:8 (read it for yourselves) or any verse that deal with justice,there is plenty of that in American Evangelicalism,however, that is beginning to change for the better. the Bible is the Bible in its entirety, the Old Testament was not done away with at Calvary, it was fulfilled, and while the Mosaic Law's precepts are not applicable to Christians, the principles remain the same.
while on the subject of the Bible, I did not scroll through all the pages in this thread,so I am not sure that the following has been covered, but it is my understanding that the early Church used the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament that was made available to a world where Greek was the lingua franca. the Septuagint not only includes the Apocrypha, but such works as the Odes of Solomon just to name one example.
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear John,

I was speaking to Pastor Badal, not to you . . .

But I agree . . .

Also, there are Protestants and there are Protestants.

When a Protestant tried to convince me that it is the Holy Spirit, not the Church, that helps us interpret the Scriptures as He sees fit - I asked him why there were so many Protestant denominations etc.

He said that that issue was blown way out of proportion and that about 85% of U.S. Protestants belong to only 12 denominations . . .

If I had to choose my Protestants, I would go with the High Church Methodists, Anglicans and Lutherans!

Alex

and I was not addressing your remarks, sir, I was commenting on the views of Mr. Badal.
Much Love,
Jonn

And what did you think of my remarks?

Alex

no problem with your remarks but you seemed a bit testy with me, the Forum is open to me as well as others.stop jumping the gun, we're friends, and I don' think that will end.
Much Love,
Jonn

I think they were far less cogent and substantive than John's, and I wonder what prompted you to make them. John's remarks were speaking directly to Joel Badal and the substance of Joel Badal's reasoning and they were very helpful if not fully persuasive to Joel. Your remarks appeared to be more of a distraction than a contribution.

Also, I think that any endorsement of "passive and active" as corollaries for "faith and works" is in error, since faith itself is the work of the faithful. So this is one Catholic who does not agree with that little truism.

Eli

Just a comment with regard to the idea of "passive" and "active" with regard to faith and works.

I submit that belief is passive. One can believe something without that belief having any impact on their lives. Faith, on the other hand, is belief put into action. Faith that is alive must express itself just as a living body expresses itself.

Faith is not a passive acceptance of God's saving action in the world but, rather, is the active response to the call to holiness that Gad makes to us through grace. Theosis is, in fact, an action of faith that leads us closer and closer to God through the interaction of grace and response.

God's saving act is very much a "call and response" that goes on throughout our lives. We speak of the perichoresis (to dance around) when we speak of the conpenetration of the Trinity, but the term applies also to our relationship with God, It is a dance with God calling the steps and us responding; God leads, we follow.

So, if I were to put Pastor Badal's words into a Catholic/Orthodox context it would be that we are being saved through the salvific act of God in which He sends grace and we respond in a living, active faith. Are we "assured" of salvation? In the sense that, as long as we do not turn away from the path of holiness and metanoia, we are assured of salvation. But there is an "if", a conditional phrase here. We must remain holy (the Latin Church calls this a "state of grace").

Just my piddling $0.02 worth (in constant currency, of course).

Fr. Deacon Edward

Dear Eli,

Well, I don't think you really take Pastor Badal seriously at all which is why you choose to respond to him in the way you have.

I don't know why my remarks are distraction - probably because they are either comments you have not read before or cannot relate to for whatever reason.

I've said nothing here I haven't shared with Protestants throughout my life and the "passive/active" componet is from William Barclay himself, not me.

I don't think it is a truism at all, but something that relates Protestantism to Eastern theology especially.

And, in my life, these same comments from me have helped me, through God's Grace of course, bring eleven Protestants into the Catholic and Orthodox Churches (two of whom are today OCA priests).

Something about reaching out to people from where they are - and where we would like them to be.

I don't know, Eli, how it is that you can come across as so arrogant, hyper-critical and offensive - but you do.

You are not someone I would ever want as a friend - indeed I wonder if you even have any.

I extend my kudos to Pastor Badal for putting up with you and some others here.

Clearly, he is someone with a strong conviction of his beliefs and Christian faith, whether we agree with them or not.

In any event, unlike Pastor Badal, I find your tone to be so offensive that I will now put myself on at least a sixty-day "time-out" from this forum with the right to extend it indefinitely.

I wish Pastor Badal every blessing in his journey with the Lord.

And I have no wish to ever converse with you again, Eli.

All the best to you , Father Deacon Edward, Moderator Extraordinaire!

I leave you to the lions . . .

I too believe that faith is active through works, but that is why Barclay affirmed its "passivity" - to indicate that faith needs works to generate the totality of one's response to God's prevenient Salvific work of Grace.

With regrets but also great peace of mind,

Alex