Originally posted by iconophile:
Ray, thank you for the charitable response; you are obviously more learned than I,
You just happened to stumble into the one of the few area that I am good at and have done years of research and study of. Mystical Theology is another and your answer in another thread (what satan can know) displays that you have something beyond the general common knowledge of Mystical Theology and its sometime associated phenomena.
>Polygenism was condemned by Pius XII in Humani Generis
Polygenism: After looking that up� I can say I do not adhere to it. Poly (many) gene (generation) used in the sense of : the human race was generated from many first parents, is not something I can agree with. Nor in the sense of separate or unequal creations - I can not adhere either.
As regards Darwin�s Evolution (which the Apostolic Letter seems to be addressing) I can not adhere to its apparent assumptions as to origins on the simple grounds that - that which is higher can not proceed from or be a product of - that which is lower. Any potential must already exist within the essence of its origin. There is an evolution to the form of the individual man (fetus, baby, child, teen, adult, old) and there is an evolution to the general form of mankind over time (boy! They were a heck of a lot shorter!) and there may be variations of form among the same species - but there is not an �evolution� from one essence to another , one species to another, and the concept of that completly misuses the definition of �species� so as to make the whole premise non-sensical and un-workable. Darwin certainly recognised and evolution in some way - but it is not the huge and 'most important human discovery' that he desireid it to be.
The �missing link� is missing because it is simple not there. Any missing link �found� has turned out to be a misinterpretation of reality and evidence cause by the human desire to prove the theory.
Our concept of the universe as functioning entirely as a mechanical watch, wound up on day one to run in an inevitable manner ever after (inherent to Darwin�s theory) is just not true. But rather the concept of creation being contingent upon the immediate will and purpose of Providence - is true (so says the Church and so I find to be true). One is our experience and sense based upon our fallen nature and our preoccupation with sense experiences and a dis-association from reality - - -and the other (the doctrine of Providence) is the only reality that truly exists. One is where we are and the other is where God would like us to be.
Specifically, as regards Polygenism� I do not hold it - as I understand it from paragraph 37 of the Apostolic letter.
As regards Adam of Genesis, let me say this. . . Genesis has a certain correlation with what we call history (the sequence of sensate events in time) but that correlation is used in an unusual way and not in the same way throughout. The history within Genesis first four narratives is not what we are used to and would assume and expect. The first four narrations are indeed the core of it as a cosmogony, and while these sections have some parallel correspondence with historical events as we would like to know them, it is not in a way that we would generally assume and that parallel is entirely secondary and almost inconsequential to what the text of these first four sections is intended to impart.
Beginning with the narration of Noah - a correlation with historical events (as we wont to define them) begins to become more predominant. There is a �slide� in Genesis where the items that appear in the beginning narrations are more important to us in an allegorical sense and the items at its end are more important to us in a time and history sense. And the �slide� from the emphasis on something as a spiritual symbol to an emphasis of that same item now having a more historical sense - culminates with Joseph in Egypt. That was a wordy way of saying what we already know and experience when we read through Genesis. Adam means more to us as to how sin is related within each of us and Joseph�s going to Egypt seems more like a historical fact with little relation to our own spiritual condition.
As regards if there was an Adam (one particular man of historical existence from which we all came) I consider this to be true - but not in the same way as is generally and commonly held. This is difficult to explain - so I will not. I will only say that I do not adhere to a time sense as it is assumed by the Darwinian theory of Evolution or the assumption of time to be Newton like. (In practical daily life I do of course but not in philosophical and more real - reality).
A big bang at the beginning of time - makes no sense to me. Time has no objective reality outside of human experience. It is a function of human memory and it is an - experience - and has no self-existence outside of that human experience. Be that as it may �
that �ground zero� of time has its �home� within the event of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ - makes all the sense in the world to me. In very much the same way that the Church figures time to be �0� within the event of the resurrection and to be counted into the past - and into the future - from that event.
� 3BC 2BC 1BC -0- 1AD 2AD 3AD �
That Jesus himself personally speaks in the �Old Testament� of specific events of his human experience, events and experiences which happen at the days and hours of his trial, crucifixion and resurrection - makes good sense to me. In this view, time, begins at the present moment of the Resurrection and spreads out to past and future - from there. In this sense, the moment of Resurrection (which is the moment of God revealing to all humanity that Jesus is his Son) is the hub or center or the �first�, highest, moment of creation and all creation flows out from it. That moment is the origin of all creation. It is the one �place� and moment of where and when eternity and time - touch - mingle - meet - and are one thing (so to speak),
That all creation �looked forward� to, and takes its meaning from, the event of the crucifixion and resurrection even before that took place within time and history - and now all creation looks back at the event of the crucifixion and resurrection and takes its meaning and purpose from that one event - makes sense to me.
I do not have all the answers - and I think that I do not want them all either.
If I have learned anything from my long study of Genesis and the mind of the Hebrews of the time of Jesus and Moses - I have learned how many wrong assumptions we make while reading it - which assumptions are a subconscious habit of our current culture and our own desire to have things - mechanical.
Of course, creation was not made in 6 days. Of course Satan is not a physical snake. Of course God does not hinge heaven and hell on - an apple and eating it. Of course God does not walk in the garden, and of course God already knew what had happened and did not need to ask Adam in order to find out. These things are metaphorical and have a direct relation to our own inner spiritual life - while yet having some relation to our human experiences of nature. The language of cosmogony is the language of shared human experience of natural things and event. The root of all languages is not in some �mother tough� but rather to be found within our common human experience of nature. The experience of fire is the same to any human even if the spoken word meaning fire may be different. It has been proven time and time again that a same experience invokes within common human nature a similar instinctive and intuitive reaction of sign (vocal or hand). The hand held upright, fingers flat and spread is a universal sign of halt, cease, stop, hold, be still, etc.. and has its origin in instinct and intuition as response to some experience. It is a sing and language instinctive to a shared human nature.
Does the fact that these items have their importance in symbolic meaning - make any historical parallel to be void? No - but it does make it that any historical aspect of them are inconsequential to the intent of the author.
If Adam was the �first man� - and the Hebrew use of �first� has the meaning of the - best / first place / origin / the original pattern / the ideal - and scripture calls Adam �the son of God� - then could the Adam of Genesis also reflect Jesus Christ himself?
The odd thing about Hebrew is it is a wide language - as opposed to the limiting and restrictive English language. English nails one concrete meaning down to one word (for the most part) and so it takes many words to say something. Hebrew words, on the other hand, most times have many related meanings to one word and which meaning is primary depends upon the context. The best of Hebrew poetry has all meanings of a word as being true and implied. A line of Hebrew poetry can be read in several ways and each way be true.
Now I have not really proposed to you here any solid meaning of Adam in Genesis - what I have done is (I hope) shaken within you some of our habitual assumptions regarding how we creatures of modern world naturally assume that the way we read it and understand it is necessarily just as the author intended us to understand from it. My goodness� I can misunderstand my wife�s words and intent and I know her more intimately of mind and soul than any man - much better than I know Moses (a different culture, a different time and society) or even God.
In final� I find Humani Generis to be a directive to Catholic educators and clergy that Polygenius (as described as being a theory that proposes that humans are descended from several original parents) is not to be taught within Catholic institutions. And I find that, while it does not condemn a Darwin like Evolution - it advises caution into the investigation of the origins of the body. It advises Catholic educators and clergy not to just accept any and all theories as true in a misguide effort to validate the beliefs of others at the cost of our own Catholic beliefs. While I do find Adam spoken of in the traditional way (first man, first parent, with a proper name of Adam) I do not find it (or any other document of Pope or Council) to be an infallible definition of Adam as being restricted to only that limited and literal definition.
I am now reminded of a conversation which I had one day with a Jehovah�s Witness. The subject was heaven and Jesus speaking on the cross to the good thief �Today - you shall be with me in paradise.� You are aware that the Jehovah�s Witnesses understand heaven to be an actual place with time - having some kind of geographical location - and they understand God the Father to have a body with legs and arms etc.. In any event � I said to him �Paradise?? Eden � you mean the good thief would be restored to Eden??� and he did not know about that - but he figured that after Jesus died (and the thief also) they would meet in a place of time and space called heaven. I pointed out to him that the Hebrew word and Jewish use of the word �today� is not the same as we use it. We think of today as a day bordered by 24 hours.. (Monday, Tuesday, etc..) and in the Hebrew mind of the time the word today would have had the meaning of - this moment right here and right now. The line �If today you hear his voice, harden not your heart.� has a more accurate meaning of �If, at this moment - now - you hear his voice, harden not your heart.� It has the meaning of - any moment of - now.
In any event� I said to him that there is the possibility that at the moment that Jesus gave this pronouncement of - now - the good thief�s soul could be experiencing Jesus in his Resurrected nature in Paradise. After all, it is clear that some of the Old Testament did experience Jesus in his Resurrected nature - even though his historical Resurrection would come centuries later into the stage of space and time. The Witness rejected this and said �No� the meaning is that the thief would go to Paradise on that Friday at the some time after his death. � To this I asked him - �Ahh� so the day and time in Paradise would be Friday, at maybe 3:30 PM??�
The church often speaks of heaven in terms of as if it were a - place, has a location, and is subject to - time. Jesus himself spoke of hell as if it had the physical location of the town dump which was located outside of the city walls and on which the Jews often threw the bodies of executed criminals and where fires were kept lighted to consume the garbage - which physical place and geographical location had the name - Gehanna. It is obvious that Jesus is speaking of an experience that a soul will have of hell - without telling us much more.
Thank you for this occasion of discussion. I have spent my time here this week.
It has really cause me to think and examine what the Church presents to us alone with my personal evolution of belief. For my part, it has been an interesting walk and I do not pretend that I have set out any solid �this is the way it is� but more so rather exposed some false assumptions that we all (myself) have unconsciously held.
See you next week.
-ray