www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News MP incites Turkish anger against EP

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=446

The members of the Moscow Patriarchate churches in Ukraine want slapping, very hard, for this.

Gaudior, appalled that they could do this

So sad... Christians against Christians... again... and using the Turks to get benefits for one of the sides... history repeats itself, although now is not France or Venice who is allying with the Turks... and no Holy League in sight so far...

So sad.

Kyrie Eleison.

Bernardo

Prediction: this will backfire severely. The Ukrainian government will gladly assure Ankara that there is nothing to fear from Ukraine. What passes for a government in Belarus couldn't frighten the Great Pumpkin. And the Russian government is too intelligent to stand behind this nonsense.

Moreover, Moscow needs Ankara at the moment much more than Ankara needs Moscow. The really interesting ecclesiastical news involving those two is that Ankara is using the "Turkish Orthodox Church" (a largely fictitious body) in an attempt to do something with some Orthodox groups in Russia who are vaguely Turkic.

Turkey is one of the few places which readily admits people for visits, business, tourism etc from Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. None of those countries can afford to pick a fight with Ankara.

Incognitus

Wait, wait, when did the EP officially set up parishes in Ukraine? Sure, some Autocephalous clergy (and parishes?) wanted to go under the EP, and some are saying they ARE under the EP, but I thought that he did not accept them?

Dave

Hello

This was a protest by some pro-russian political groups, it does not necesarily reflect the official opinion of the Patriarchate of Moscow.

But as you can see, Catholics shouldn't get so surprised at Alexis II anrgy actions towards Rome and the Uniat Church. After all, they also dislike the EP and are opposed to it in stronger terms than with Rome.

Ok, help me clear this confused Latin mind. The group that is protesting would be the Ukrainian Orthodox who are in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, right? Not the seperate group considered schismatic by the MP, and not the Ukrainian Catholics, right?

If so, they are protesting the presence of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople, right? The one headed by the guy otherwise known as the Ecumenical Patriarch? Not some radical, fringe, non-Canonical, schismatic Patriarch of Constantinople that I've never heard of? Is this all correct?

Help me out here, this stuff is boggling my mind.

It's hard to know whether to laugh or cry. Certainly a serious slapping is in order. Maybe Boggy can return and do what he did in the Maltese Falcon.

Dan L, feeling himself to be saner every day. :p

Ghosty-

You're correct.

And I think things will only get worse......

The Pro-Russian supporters are complaining against the EP's dialogue with the Kyivan Patriarchate and the Autocephalists, fearing that the EP would ever recognize an independent Church in the Ukraine.

If this happens, others (Belarus, Moldova, Latvia) would follow the example, undermining the supremacy of the MP in the former USSR, which is key to the Russian Imperialist interests.

The Church of Moscow is also afraid to loose control over Ukrainian shrines that receive generous donations from the faithful.

Ghosty:

Why don't we spell out the loyalties of the once "united" Church of Ukraine?

The principal protagonists are:

(1) UOC-MP, the largest but some say many faithful of this group are Russian speaking or ethnic Russians;

(2) UOC-KP, whose "Patriarch" (Met. Filaret) lost out as chief hierarch of the UOC-MP, is playing footsie with UGCC [Met. Filaret and Cardinal Husar have been seen together in many religious functions];

(3) UAOC, who mostly splintered from the UOC-KP; and

(4) UGCC, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholics, or Ukrainian Orthodox in communion with Rome, who might be getting the support of (3) and (4) before long, unless the EP will absorbed them, which then leads to a pissing off contest between the EP and the ROC-MP. Recently, Cardinal Husar called for the re-unification of the Church of Ukraine under a single head, but the elected/selected (Orthodox) Patriarch should request communion with the Pope of Rome!

Those protesters could be faithful of no. (1).

In the meantime, the UGCC transfers its headquarters from L'viv to Kyiv and Rome is mum and keeps her distance from the internicine wars.

Amado

Wow, talk about an...interesting Communion. The Eastern Orthodox are a heck of a lot more complicated than I ever suspected! I learn more every day.

My family background is Oriental Orthodox (though I wasn't raised with it, I have studied it) and I'm a Latin Catholic, so to say that these things are foreign to my brain is an understatement.

I'm somewhat familiar with the "alphabet soup" that is the Eastern Orthodox communion, but you just described more groups within a single country than I was familiar with in the whole Eastern Orthodox Communion. And I thought the Eritrean/Ethiopian issue was bad :p

At times like this I'm kinda glad that the worst I'm forced to deal with is well-intentioned jabs between the Melkites and the Latins.

So what happens if the EP recognizes (2)? What kind of situation arises when the Constantinople Orthodox are in communion with both the MPs and (2)? How does THAT work?

My heart goes out to all the Orthodox who may be stuck in the middle of this! I hope it gets resolved amicably.

Peace and Love!

If one considers the state of Orthodox politics in the United States, one might also note that unity here has not been accomplished either. The largest group happens to be Greek, whose hierarchs are appointed by the ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople. Smaller jurisdictions claim autocephaly (OCA), as well as autonomy (Antiocheans), but the largest has not agreed to unity beyond their collaborative SCOBA efforts. So, there is more to various claims than just perceived traditional geographic territory.

Actually, deciding which of the contending Orthodox jurisdictions in Ukraine is the largest depends on how one counts. Here's the situation:

At the moment, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate has the largest number of parishes.

But the largest number of people giving their religion as "Orthodox" on the census state their Church affiliation as "Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate".

Anyone know where the "jurisdiction of the month club" is holding its next meeting?

Incognitus

Bishop Husar's "offer" a few weeks back is making a LOT more sense to me now. More sense in that I understand why it was put out, not necessarily in its viability.

Although that whole "playing footsie" thing is intriquing. I too have seen pictures and statements to that effect, and some Russian Orthodox I know were none to happy about it. To say the least.

Peace, love, and prayers for resolution!

Not in the most sincere pumpkin patch.