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Of course they do not think we are Christians! It amazes me how the liberals on this forum with their ecumenism beliefs think we can live together and hold our different believes as if all of the religions we equal. It doesn�t work! The Catholic Church is from God. The Protestant Church is Satan�s cleaver way to divide and conquer. These people hold heretical and dangerous beliefs.

I am sorry if Catholics today are following the Pope on his ecumenism or die approach to the faith these days. I truly believe this Pope is so wrong. For almost two thousand years no other Pope has held this belief system. Popes launched wars to defend Christian Europe against the evils of Islam and this Pope kisses the Koran. Something is very wrong when one Pope goes against all of his predecessors like John Paul II has done.

What has ecumenism gotten us? What are the fruits of this effort? Let�s see, in Germany we had Catholic Bishops participating in inter-communion with the Lutherans. Most of these Lutherans do not believe in the real presence. Next we have a Pagan Europe. Basically, the Pope has even said it Europe is no longer Christian. In Latin America our strong hold the faithful are leaving in droves. If your were to plot this out on a graph I think it would mean Protestant Latin American in the not to distant future. Next we have Bishops basically saying that Jews don�t need Jesus (we won�t get into that discussion again). Doesn�t the Bible say, �By their fruits you will know them?� Well, I see no fruits from this ecumenism.

Now don�t get me wrong about ecumenical dialog with the Orthodox. The Orthodox are Christians unlike our Protestant friends. We should continue dialog with the Orthodox. Anyway, it is not ecumenism but dialog with the Orthodox.

We should strength our faithful. Teach them the Catechism. Show them how wrong the Protestant are send them out into the world to evangelize the lost Protestant souls. So, they too can become Christians. If not then more and more Protestants are going to fall into Satan�s arms. The Anglicans have already fallen. Soon they will bless Homosexual marriages. Whats next blessing marriages between humans and dogs? How dare they make a mockery out of the Sacrament of Marriage!

But Johan, the Catholic Church has grown in the last 20 years in numbers. How do you explain that in light of "knowing them by their fruits"?

While I acknowledge there has been some liturgical abuses in the Latin Church I think this Pope has done an exceptional job being the face and voice of evangelization and revitalization in the Church. He has also supported groups interested in liturgical restoration and proper reform in the Roman Church such as the Fraternity of St. Peter who have grown from 0 to almost 30 dioceses in North America in 13 years. Entirely within the pontificate of John Paul II. They have a waiting list for their seminary.

Their constitution was APPROVED BY JOHN PAUL II AND ALLOWS THEM TO ONLY SAY THE 1962 ROMAN MASS. If he is such an enemy of Catholic Tradition as you allege, he could not possibly support such a "traditionalist uprising".

New monastic foundations faithful to the Magesterium and the liturgical tradition of the Roman Church are starting up. Check out http://www.clearcreekmonks.org/ for a wonderful example of this. This is in DIRECT response to the directives of the Holy Father John Paul II. I have been on retreat to this monastery twice already and can tell you liturgically it is like how I would imagine Solemnes in the late 19th century.

I find it very hard to believe you are a member of a Byzantine parish with a reactionary stance like this. If you have read the Holy Father's documents, which you apparently have not, you would realize that for Eastern Catholics he has been the greatest catalyst since the Union in promoting a RETURN TO TRADITION for the Eastern Churches. From a Latinized perspective, I'm sure all this return to orthodox tradition in the Eastern Catholic Churches seems like a modernist conspiracy... :rolleyes:

Have you achieved a level of holiness and contemplation to objectively judge the holiness of John Paul II? I do not profess to understand all of his actions, but I do know that his encyclicals are absolutely orthodox.

While acknowledging there are problems I'll take a "half full" approach especially considering how things are now compared to the 1970s at the height of the "experimentation phase" in the church when just mentioning "Tridentine Mass" would get someone suspended.


If you want to discuss individual issues and statements, and allow those making them to respond, fine. Otherwise keep these sui generis attacks out of here.

Bretheren forgive me for this one in advance lol!

To me, it seems, that Protestantism is often attractive to people because it is overly simplistic.
You dont need to do much agonizing over matters of faith or theology.
And unfortunately today much of our educational system at least in America is far from that, that being EDUCATION.
Protestantism appeals to simple minds.
Stephanos I

A former protestant who now has seen the true light, who has partaken in the heavenly glory and cofesses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I fully agree with Johan. I believe that we Apostolic Christians very much responsable of this. In Mexico, for example, the Evangelical sect now seems to be the owner of the word "Christian". Catholics here say "are you Catholic or Christian?".

In the case of Latin American Catholics, this happens because of ignorance, and because as long as the Catholic Church looses its identity and becomes more similar to Protestantism, it's easier for the sects to cheat them. Poverty is also the reason, people go with the sect that gves more money to them, sadly.

In the case of the Orthodox, they join the Protestant sect because they see it as something new, their services are very fun with rock and dances and clap their hands, and it's an easy religion. They see it as something new and modern and think the Orthodox faith is primitive and even boring.

Protestantism has always acted as a political faction more than as a religion. Both cases have something in common, which is the proccess of de-culturation. Protestantism brings them to the secular culture and the rejection of their national identity, and more willing to accept the evil policies of economical integration, the destruction of our independence as nations.

The globalists now that as long as our countries are Orthodox or traditional Catholic, they won't be able to dominate us. That's the reason why freemason Juarez in Mexico, for example, invited the Protestant sects, eliminating the common lands, common culture, etc. Britain also tried a similar strategy in Greec when tey imposed George Meyer a Protestant as Religious Adffairs minister.

Johan-

Your comment about the pope kissing the Koran is anything but reactionary. It is hard, objective truth. I admire the uncompromising stance you take concerning these things.

I dare say that Christians just a few hundred years ago would rather die a martyr's death then kiss the filthy koran; a book that calls for the deaths of non-muslims.

Keep up the good work. You have your supporters here.

Columcille

I have absolutely no idea why or when the Holy Father kissed the Koran. I don't think he should have done so.

While the fundamentalist-evangelical Protestantism continues to make inroads into Latin America and Asia, mainline Protestantism is dying. Both Orhtodox and Catholics must do a better job of teaching the Faith so when these simple minded groups come knocking they are shown the door. Preferably head first.

I worked with an ex-Catholic fundamentalist who loudly repeated all the lies her minister told her. Oh, was it annoying. I held my tounge.

When I visited the Smithsonian in DC two years ago, there was an exhibit about New Mexico. I distinctly remember the display about Our Lady of Guadalupe and a sign that Catholic families put on their front doors.

Este es un hogar catolico. No necesitamos informac�on de otra religiones.

"This is a Catholic home. We don't need information about other religions."

A well educated and informed Catholic or Orthodox is immune from their simplistic platitudes.

This reminds me of when I was in high school and we moved to a new home. One day there was a knock at the door and my brother, who was in the 7th grade at that time, answered the door. The man standing there said something like -- I'm Rev. so-and-so from such-a-such Protestant Church and I want to welcome your family to this town. And my brother said in his 7th grade innocence, "Well, we're Catholic." The man said, "Oh, I guess I can't help you then!"

When my brother told the rest of us about it, we laughed ourselves silly. And I still laugh when I think about it.

"When I visited the Smithsonian in DC two years ago, there was an exhibit about New Mexico. I distinctly remember the display about Our Lady of Guadalupe and a sign that Catholic families put on their front doors.

Este es un hogar catolico. No necesitamos informac�on de otra religiones.

"This is a Catholic home. We don't need information about other religions.

Ths story of that is the following:

In 1846, troops under Gen. Kearney entered Santa Fe. Months after the abuses became intolerable and the insurrection of 1847 started. Holy priests of the RC were the ones who inspired the rebelion. According to the Chronicles (those you don't see there) children would attach gun powder to their backs (carrying their icons or statues), and explode themselves when the Angloamerican troops approached. Unable to resist for so long, the New Mexicans trinchered themselves in the parish church in Taos. Even though they had surrendered, soldiers under Col. Price, burned the parish, performed sacrilegious acts, and massachred 150 people (children and women included.

Soon after peace had been imposed, the Protestant sects arrived and the government tried to spread the false religion so that they forgot their identity, and that's what happened. NM had been totaly abandones by the Old Mexico and they had to resist them by themselves, by puting these in their houses.

And these are still in many houses here in Mexico, asking the JW's to stay away.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Evangelical Christians could use their God given charismata of extending their zeal, love, and knowledge of the Bible to their fellow Christians, while also acknowledging that those fellow Christians belong to an ancient and full faith tradition which the people they are 'evangelizing' to feel comfortable in?

Billy Graham did this in his crusades. He always told people to start attending their own churches, after the message of Christ stirred their hearts to repent and follow Him. Many Americans of a certain age, Catholic and Orthodox, have him to thank for jump starting their faith journeys. I think that is why he has been so widely respected in this country, and has been pastor to all but one (Clinton) recent U.S. Presidents.

I lived in Greece during the last influx of Evangelical Christianity in the early 1980's. It was great to see graffiti on highways that wasn't the usual political anti-American and domestic mumbo jumbo, but that was actually spiritual! (Repent!) (Jesus Christ is Savior!), etc. It was great to see teenagers in the most affluent areas of Athens, who had probably not been in a church since their baptisms, congregating to hear the word of God. It was great to see Bible Study classes cropping up in circles in Athens...

The simple message that the Evangelicals can so aptly convey is a gift and one that in an ideal Christian world could be used for the resurgence of spirituality within an Orthodox context. Instead, it is used, on the most part, once again, in our fallen nature, to compete. That really is a shame.

I don't know what happened to all that euphoria of the early 1980's. I do know that Orthodoxy in Greece has succumbed to a slump of monumental proportions. There are exceptions, and I am not using this as a blanket statement. However, Greeks today have become quite affluent, and are consumed by consumerism and secularism and the good life. Not much different there than the rest of Europe and a good many parts of the U.S.

I do not see Evangelical Christians as evil (I do not presume to judge so harshly, and I think some of their motivations are sincere). We should not be so judgemental.

However, I am not afraid to combat error and heresy when I hear it. Clearly, the Evil One has always used heresy and error to divide and weaken the Church, and he must be defeated. The presence of error should challenge us to be more faithful, more zealous, and more determined than ever to preach the Gospel.

I think we have discussed how the Evil One is clever and shrewd, identifying the weaknesses in our Church (our failure to adequately educate and teach, for one). He finds our weakest point, and attacks. (...in the Church, and in our personal lives too.)

I am distressed to read this article about one evangelical Church's desire to target Orthodox Greece during the Olympics. I am sad to hear what the protestants are doing to divide the Church in Latin America and other Catholic Countries.

Can we admire their zeal, while being critical of their theology and misguided efforts?

Are there not enough 'un-Churched' and athiests, godless men and women in America to keep them busy? I wish they were a zealous for the cities of America, where the Gospel is not heard, and violence and fear and lies rule the streets. These are the traditional 'homelands' of Protestant Christianity are they not? It seems their preaching has not taken root in their own Protestant and evangelical base.

If only 10% of church members attend church services in Greece or Italy, then the time is ripe for another form of Christianity to move in. Maybe they will suceed where others have failed? Islam is on the rise too.

What are WE braced for?

I believe that Catholicism and Orthodoxy CAN grow again. Unfortunately, having children in these nations has dropped considerably.

One can see how cradle Greek Catholics flowed to the Latin Churches in this country. Who was watching the fences? How did the sheep leave so easily. Where were the shepherds? It is one thing to have sheep leave the fold through broken fences; it is another thing to make it too easy to leave.

People go where they feel they will be better taken care of. Some leave because they have an opportunity to participate.

Why don't we have any evangelization in our own Eastern Catholic Churches? I have seen many photos in newspapers about 'Evangelization Committee' meetings. Will the plan ever be revealed?

Seriousness about evangelization is intimately related to seriousness about oneself. If we are expending our energies figuring out which churches to close, then we know where we are headed.

We need a Baptism of Fire!

Joe Thur

The Holy Father (and the Vatican machine) are speaking about the wave of godlessness throughout Europe. That Christianity (or even any mention of God) is not a part of the new EU Constitution is a subject of frequent comment by the Vatican.

But the truth of the matter is, that Europe is largely no longer a Christian continent. The Church has failed to hand on the faith to new generations, and faced with consumerism and secularism, the Church has not been able to speak adequately. In compromising with the world, and conforming itself to certain modern points of view, the traditional Churches of Europe have weakened themselves, and lost credibility.

The Pope will complain, but the damage is done, and Europe is ripe for conversion.

Although I would be critical of the errors of protestant preaching.... is it more desirable that the growing presence of Islam (which is growing fast) in the Old World?

If our Church has not received a "wake up call" we should sound the alarm?

We have the command "go to preach to all nations". And this is our task, and it should form part of our examination.

And yet, the Church is God's bride, and are we not called upon to trust the Bridegroom, the head of this household, to watch and guard the house? I am only curious how to balance devotion to the faith, and love of the Church, and zeal for the mission; with the confidence we must have in our Lord and Savior, the head of our Church and the guide of all true believers.

Dear Friends,

My own take on this situation is that Evangelical Christianity can ONLY be stopped dead in its tracks, once and for all, WHEN it becomes the establishment Church in any given country.

When that happens, its fervour and zeal will disappear, people will stop attending Church and since it has a negative attitude to culture in general, it will soon disappear totally.

If Evangelical Christians don't know this, they don't know their church history.

They will then become the authors of their own demise.

As one commentator said about the change that came about in a bishop soon after the Christian Church was made official in the Roman Empire, "He lost a finger during the persecutions of the Church, but then, after the Peace of Constantine, dedicated the rest of his body to the Roman state . . ."

Alex

Well said, Father Elias. This should be a wake-up call for members of all "mainline" churches finding themselves in this predicament, whether it be the Roman Church, the Moscow Patriarchate, Church of Greece, etc. that the old ways are not keeping the faithful coming to church. In many places where the Catholic Church is making gains (Africa and India especially) these are not necessarily "Old World" Catholic strongholds.