www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Question for Berean

Pastor,

May I ask you a question? Why Independant Baptist? Why not become a member of the Southern Baptist or American Baptist Church?

If I may presume to speak for Berean, I suspect he's not a member of any of the Baptist bodies in the US because he lives in Ireland.

A Baptist minister once told me that there are 1600 different kinds of Baptists, with most of those representing a single congregation. I don't know if anyone has actually counted, but the organizational structure is so loose, that anyone is free to leave and start another congregation. In my area, you will see "Old Beverly Baptist Church," and down the road is "New Beverly Baptist Church," because someone disagreed on some point and left to form a new church. Closer to home, two ladies who were sisters and grew up in the same church disagreed on a theological point. One sister said Christ would return before the trumpet blast and reign on the earth for 1,000 years. The other sister said Christ would return AFTER the trumpet blast, etc. So one sister left and joined another congregation. This is fairly common, although it happens less often in the larger Baptist bodies such as the Southern Baptist Convention.

Good question in the OP.

I believe in the autonomy of each local church. Being sola scriptura I don't see any evidence in Scripture of a denominational heirarchy.

Is this a preference that I would fight and die for? No. It is simply a preference I have chosen inthe light of what I see in the Bible.

Roger

And where in Scripture, which refers to the Church as "the pillar of truth", do you see evidence for sola scriptura ? Just curious...welcome to the forum, by the way.
peace, Daniel, a descendent of Irish Protestants

I guess part of my problem with added tradition is that we are never told to "preach tradition" but to "preach the Word."

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God,and is profitable..."

I never find a comparable verse for tradition.

The church as the Body of Christ is indeed the "pillar of and ground of the truth" for it is through the church that God has chosen to spread the truth of His Word.

Thanks for the greeting.

Roger

This verse was a battlecry of mine when I was a Sola Scriptura protestant (Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod)--until it hit me that the Apostles had no idea that they were writing what would become our New Testament. That passage speaks of the Old Testament, and while it is certainly applicable to the New Testament, it's an application that springs from Holy Tradition. 2 Timothy COULD have been thrown out as being an "uninspired" book and that particular verse would be lost to the world. No, the successors of the Apostles, guided by the successor of Peter and the Holy Spirit, chose to declare 2 Timothy to be canonical, and thus it is. Remember, the Bible as we know it is a product of the Church. The Church is not a product of the Bible.

Quite a number of them come to my mind almost immediately. In the Gospel according to Luke (10:16), we read that Jesus said to his disciples "He who hears you, hears Me"

In the Gospel according to Matthew (16:19), our Lord says to Peter "Whatever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed also in Heaven.

In the Gospel according to John (13:20), Jesus says to the Twelve, "Amen, amen Isay to you, he who receives the one I send, receives me; he who receives me, receives the One who sent me."

Acts 2:42 says that people devoted themselves to the "Teachings of the Apostles"

Before He ascended into Heaven, our Lord comissioned the Apostles to teach all nations to obey "everything I have commanded you." Notice how Jesus didn't say "Here's some Bibles, go give them out and tell people how to follow what's inside."

And perhaps the most compelling verse to support the existence and dignity of Holy Tradition? 2nd Thessalonians 2:15. "Stand firm and hold fast to the traditions which you have been taught, whether by oral statement or by a letter from us."

The list goes on, but I'll shut up now and give other people a chance to post

I must get back on the same drill I have practiced here before: that Christ did not come to write a book, he came to establish a Church. That is exactly what he did, without once ever saying to the apostles, "go and write all this down." They didn't start writing till some years or decades later. Though, this is not meant to belittle the importance of scripture.

Perhaps someone else here can remind us of the scriptural meaning of the phrase, "Word of God," which was recently the subject of another thread.

In Christ and the Theotokos,

Tammy

Tammy,

I remember posting on one of the threads(but can't remember where) that if we look at John 1:1-2/ "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." This was to show that the Word(in the beginning) was God..namely, Jesus Christ, the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us..

This does not negate, however, the scriptures which are also called the inspired word of God which, correct me if I am wrong, I think you are also saying when you say, "...this is not meant to belittle the importance of scriptures" cf. Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double edged sword."

However, we worship Jesus - the living Word of God.

Mary Jo aka Porter

Hi,

I have to kindly and respectfully disagree...about sola scriptura because it doesn't cut it.

St. Paul instructs Christians to follow the Traditions (paradosis) of the Apostles. I Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15.

Also many scriptures support it:

2Tim 2:2; 1 Cor 15:1-2, Mal 2:7, Deut 17:8-10; Neh 8:8-9, 1 Tim 3:15, Matt 16:18-19, Luke 10:16, John 20:30, John 21:25; John 16:12-13; 2 Pet 3:16; 2Pet 1:20, Acts 8:30-31; Matt 18:15-17.

You have to understand that the Canon of the New Testament wasn't decided until the 4th Century by the Catholic/Orthodox Church. No where in the Bible does it say that G-d's revelation is to be find in the written Scriptures exclusively.

There is a passage in the Scripture saying that NOT EVERYTHING is written in the Scripture, if it was...it would have taken volumes upon volumes to do that.

Also, the Church, being the author of the written Scriptures, would make the Church an expert of it.

Let me give you an analogy: The Written US Constitution cannot interpret itself and thus we need a Supreme Court to guide us in our understanding of what the document is truly supposed to mean. So in the same way, the Sacred Tradition, Councils of the Church and the Magesterium does the job of interpreting the Scriptures more accurately.

If I was to look up on a local phone book for Churches, and I would see many different Christian denominations there (who differ widely on crucial issues of doctrine) who all CLAIM to be "led by the Holy Spirit" in interpreting the Bible in it's "plain, straightforward sense."

I'm sorry to say that the Holy Spirit CANNOT be the author of divisions! There is only ONE Church, ONE Truth. So if you look at the teachings of the Early Christian churches...study the Church Fathers...then study it..then you'll have to search for which Church contain the SAME teaching for 2,000 years.

The Catholic/Orthodox Church is a visible institution established by Christ Himself. Matt 16:18-19; Matt 5:14; Acts 9:4 (this one when Saul persecuted the Church, he also persecuted Christ).

Of course it shows in the Bible about Apostolic Succession (again look in Matt 16:18-19...but also Acts 1:15-26; Eph 3:21; 1 Thess 5:12-13).

You can trace the Successor of St. Peter from Pope John Paul II all the way back to St. Peter himself. Also, Patriarch Bartholomelow all the way back to St. Andrew the Apostle. Patriarch of Alexandria back to St. Mark. Patriarch of Jerusalem back to St. James, etc. Many more successors that cannot be listed here.

Chapter 3 in 1 Timothy talks about a bishop, so hence it's hiearchy. There are a few passages that talks about the authority of the Church elders (bishops/priests).

All of 7 Sacraments (Mysteries) can be found in the Bible as well. Seven Sacraments were instituted by Christ Himself. They are: Baptism, Chrismation (Confirmation), Holy Eucharist, Extreme Unction, Holy Priesthood, Holy Matrimony, and Holy Confession. If you want, I can list all the Biblical references for them. Does the Baptist Church have all Seven Sacraments?

Sacraments are not just mere symbol, but rather an outward sign of Christ's TRUE power, that means, whatever is shown is truly REAL, NOTHING symbolic. (i.e. in Baptism, we use water, but we know that water doesn't have powers, but the water SHOWS the presence of the power of G-d. G-d uses the visible to show the invisible.)

I thank G-d for the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition! It's a gift!

G-d bless,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Greetings to all and thank you for your thoughts.

Clearly this is an area where we are going to disagree. This is your discussion board and therefore I will leave it at that and will agree to disagree with you.

Besides, I am probably outnumbered about 1345 to 1 .

Again, I thank you for the kind spirit with which each of you expressed your views.

Pastor,

Thank you for your questions which have given many of us food for thought and reason to explain what we believe.

Hopefully, if you don't continue to post with us, you will drop in from time to time.

And may God continue to bless you in your ministry and give you and yours many good years...


In the Name of Jesus,


Porter <><

Welcome, Pastor Berean!

�We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers. Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.� (1 Thess 1:2,3)

I hope you find the Forum a good place to learn about the Christian East.

Might I suggest to our other Forum members that Pastor Berean has joined our community to learn about us and not to debate about or defend the theology of his Church? Let�s concentrate on answering any questions he might have for us and refrain from debates.

Admin

Thanks so much admin.

I trust that I have not come across as contentious. I don't like it when people visit boards I moderate with the goal of "causing trouble" and have tried to refrain from doing so as I respect you all and this board.

I was sharing with someone about my visits here, and they said that in their dealings with other Byzantine Christians they had alwasy been impressed with the kindness and consideration with which they were treated and I have found the same here.

I am happy to answer any questions about my faith and practices, but it is not with the intention of trying to convince anyone here that I am right.

Thank you again.

Roger