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I think the Church holds that one's conscience needs to be properly formed. Conscience is not automatically free from error.

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Dear Califdcn,

Which Catechism are you referring to? The Catechism of the Catholic Church issued under Pope John Paul II?

If you are against that, then ANATHEMA!

Have a nice day anyway,

Alex

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Anathemas are good. We certainly won't hurl donuts at him. Donuts are too good to waste on heretics. wink biggrin

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Califcn you seem to have misunderstood the Second Vatican Council and the Catechism's teaching on conscience. Basically the Catechism states the truth: The Church cannot enter the heads of individual believers and force them to do good all the time. Ultimately conscience is the arbiter of moral judgements but conscience is in no way infallible nor does it generate impeccable behaviour. In the words of the Catechism:

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IV. Erroneous Judgment

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61
As for what you said about pastoral care as opposed to enforcing the law. If you are accusing those who follow the teachings of the magisterium as being Pharisaic I must say I take personal offence to that and, though at times I have been known to be a little emotion, rarely very rarely do I take personal offence at anything. So...please do not hold it against me if I say anything untowards but this subject is one very close to my heart since it has already been a deep gash in the life of my sprit.

I spent 5 years of my teenage life wandering around aimlessly in the darkness following various trends and various people seeking for something I knew not what and the biggest irony? It was what I had left: The Church. Why did I leave? Because nobody gave me a good answer. There was all this compromised wooly crap but none of the real deal. I was getting second hand interpretations from people who evidently thought they were doing me a favour. God bless them they had good intentions but God help them they cost me peace of mind for a long time, me and many others.

This country (Britain) has so many teenage self-harmers highest rate in Europe. Everyone is unhappy, nobody feels accepted and I never realised until I came back to the Church why that is. Its because England has forgotten its God and the liberals are not helping. My beautiful God makes life tough but by His Holy name He does it for a reason. He denies me a lot but He gives so much in return. He forces me to reject my own will but in doing so He offers me infinate compensation: Himself. By preventing me from being lost in the plesures of life His beautiful Law lets me come to see Him face to face and touch His love. Can anything compare to the God who is love? How can we want for anything when we have God who IS everything?

Many people see the Church's law on contraception, masterbation etc. As interfering. In this they show that they are children of the world not of God. For whoever hears His Apostles, Hears Christ. The LIE that one can live in mortal sin and embrace Christ is EVIL and a milestone be hung around the neck of those who preach this 'new gospel' these 'super apostles' mad How could they...? Really...? Deny us, Generation X, the abandoned generation, the forsaken, left to the indifferent world of unfulfilling trends and fashions. How could they deny us the only REAL thing in existence??? Can you tell me?

Sin like St Paul says in Romans 1 is addictive, its seductive, its like a beast it takes you by the teeth and devours you. And our punishment as the Apostle writes is to like it, to be blinded by it until its too late. Thank God He is merciful enough to save us from that. He gives us Himself, a truth unequalled! Compared to the temporary pleasures of sin knowing the loving prescence of God particularly in Blessed Sacrament is...indeed, there is no comparison. Yet, because of weak and liberal clergy I and many of my uncatechised generation have been abandoned to these false pleasures. God gave us Himself and gave us priests so that we could maintain our relationship with Him. SO mercifcul is He that even when we sin He Himself cleanses us through Confession. And He himself enters our souls and draws us towards us through the magnetic force of His love as 1 John 4:19 attests to. Yet some priests out there would subvert their vocation. Would deny their flocks the fullness of that highest good. ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA!! How dare they???

Its sooo close. The joy of everything, of infinity, is so close. It resides in tabernacles all over the world. And they would dampen our perceptivity to it by allowing us to live in sin. To reject the pure teaching of the Church, which allows us to grow beyond ourselves and throw all we our into the arms of Jesus? So many around me are suffering even now. My generation, my people and I KNOW if they could see Christ as I see Him now, thanks to my reversion, they would all be healed in their hearts. Yet they have these anti-magisterial DISSIDENTS raging against the Roman Orthodoxy. I would LOVE for my family and friends to share in the healing prescence of God but so much liberalism has made broken wineskins from them so much so they cannot even see the gift...

Its not even a struggle to do God's will so long as I look at Him because knowing His saving love makes me want to serve Him. When you love someone you'll do anything for them. Jesus showed this through His passion. Likewise He need only ask me and I jump at Him. I am GLAD for the harsh rules of His law because it perfects my love. It helps me to show my love. And it protects me from being blinded by the pleasures of this world, so much so that I have no eyes to see Him any longer, which is truly, truly Hell.

God be praised for forming our consciences through His Church. God be praised for refusing us the use of contraception, which prevents us from loving completely selflessly as He loves. God be praised for denying us premartial sex, abortion, euthanasia, divorce and so on. God be praised, God be praised, God be praised.

Peter has spoken through John Paul, this is the faith of the Fathers, this we all believe, anathema to him who does not believe. ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA!!!


"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
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Dear friends, Alex mentions the Calabrian abbot Blessed Joachim of Fiore. Many of the apocalyptic ideas of our own time can be traced back to Bl. Joachim. Of course, Dante writes of him in the Divine Comedy. There is a center for Joachimite studies in Calabria and they have some pages in English on their website: http://www.centrostudigioachimiti.it/Benvenuti/benvenutieng.asp

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Dear Myles,

You are so young, yet SO wise...
you are an example for all of us!

Just today Fr. Benedict Groeschel, (who is very popular here on television and on the lecture circuit, a Franciscan of the Renewal, a holy and saintly man,who is very orthodox, very loving, very humorous and very Catholic, yet not judgemental and triumphalistic), said that God has defined sin for us BECAUSE HE loves us and wants what is good for us, NOT because HE wants to make us unhappy!

It seems as if that message has gotten incredibly twisted!

In Christ,
and God bless you,
you have enriched us greatly!
Alice

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Fr Groeschel is wonderful, I met some of the Franciscan friars of the renwal once. They are superb people. If I ever get rich I will sponsor them so that they can open more religious houses all over England and spread the gospel of radical poverty.


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Yes, he is and I feel so blessed to have spoken to him and met him! I have a few books signed by him too!

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In words more appropriate for people my age

"cool" wink


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Dear Alice and Myles, I would like to add my 2 cents of admiration for Fr. Groeschel. I especially like the fact that he often refers to the writings of the Eastern Fathers, and that he speaks always with respect toward the Orthodox and looks for that which is good in people of all faiths or no faith.

Vito

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It should also be pointed out that Fr. John Trugilio (sp) on EWTN and of the Diocese of Harrisburg, PA is ALWAYS repectful of Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox.

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Dont forget Fr Mitch Pacwa who is a bi-ritual Jesuit and does those cool shows from the Middle East wink


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Yes Fr. Mitch's recent interview with Chaldean bishop was fascinating! Fr.'s biritual faculties are with the Maronites.

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Myles:

I am so edified with your post about conscience that I have copied it to my collection of material for meditation.

May the Lord continue to bless your continued growth in relationship with Him. May He walk closely beside you on your pilgrim journey. May He be your constant guide, defender, teacher, friend, and companion. May the Mother of God place you under her Protecting Veil. May you have a welcome by Christ Himself on the Great Day when each of us must give an account before the whole world.

Thank God for your example and witness.

In Christ,

BOB

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In all fairness, it might be that we should pray for those who have so diluted the Faith that they teach to others.

Fr. John Trugilio's story of his struggle to obtain a theological education, to be accepted by a diocese, and to be ordained says much about those who would cling to the Faith and still try to serve the People of God in the clergy. You'll find it in the book, "Goodbye, Good Men."

In Christ,

BOB

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