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#164345 03/02/06 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by Teen Of The Incarnate Logos:
Well, I just got out of the Ash Wednesday Mass at the University Catholic Center. It was, for me, a truly awful way to begin Lent. I have decided to respectfully write the priest an e-mail expressing my grievances [ . . . ]
Quote
Originally posted by crule:
Teen:

Pick your battles. If, as a Roman Catholic, you search and search, you will *NEVER* find the "perfect liturgy." Every church has something in it that will "irk" you. Trust me - I've been there.

As far as what you're pointing out, the only *real* issue I see if the lack of proper posture during the Eucharistic Prayers. But, unless he specifically told everyone to stand up and totally defied the rubric for kneeling....

Save your energy for when they start making up their own eucharistic prayers, changing the words of institution, letting deacons say the words specifically assigned to the priest, etc.
Quote
Originally posted by theophan:
Teen:

If you're looking for a liturgy done strictly by the rubrics, you'd better save your money for a ticket to Rome. Where I live even the bishop encourages standing during the anaphora. In fact, there is one church that was built some years ago in this diocese where there are no kneelers and they stand during the anaphora as a matter of their own practice. The bishop wanted this place to be a model for how he sees liturgy celebrated in the future.

I had a priest tell me that what you describe is what has passed for "formation" in the seminaries for the last 40 years so don't get upset over the product and don't let it get you off track. It's no secret that many seminary programs encourage men to improvise as they go along and what you describe is mild compared to some of the things that I've heard of in the years since the revised liturgy has become the norm. In some circles it's seen as a proof that a man is truly "in the Spirit of Vatican II" when he flouts the rubrics. And as long as it doesn't get too outrageous, most bishops won't bother a priest.

As I have encouraged you above, look past the externals to Christ. And be careful that you don't incur His Wrath later by describing the liturgy as coverd in "mud and manure." You don't mean that, I hope.

As far as Latin goes, it's a non-starter. Most seminary programs haven't taught it for many years and there are lots of priests in their 30s, 40s, and 50s--even 60s--who have had no training in the language at all. If you really want to make things a mess, just push that issue. The reality is that there are very few who can navigate in that language these days. Certainly no one wants to have someone try to stumble through the liturgy in a language that he has no knowledge of. In such a scenario, why pick Latin? Why not Swahili or Hindi or Mandarin?

Beyond all this, there are many places in the world where people have no access to the Liturgy AT ALL. Either they are under persecution, have had their churches destroyed, had their priests killed, or have no vocations to supply ordainted leadership.

Man, I've been where you're at and I've lived through some nasty stuff. But when years and experience have brought me to where I am, I've come to understand that I've been selfish and self-centered by complaining. Better to give others an example of how people ought to approach the Mysteries and live it truly from the inside out than to be a bitter complainer. Where I am now--and I don't want you to think I'm boasting because that's not my intent--is a place where my fellow parishioners ask me what ought to be done in liturgical situations and not our pastor. And even when he tells people something is "no big deal," they come and ask me if it is or not. That, too, is a dangerous place to be. We owe our priests holy obedience because of Baptism and deliberately crossing one will draw the Lord's ire at the Judgment. So I want to counsel you to be very careful here. Find a priest who will serve as your spiritual father and listen to him. For awhile it might even profit you to submit to someone who is a bit more "liberal" than you seem to be. Such a man might have the patience to explain to you the whats and the whys and the wherefores of what is going on and try to help you understand what it is that is upsetting you so much.

If you have been seduced by some of those who think that the glory days were before Vatican II, you should certainly take this last step. There were plenty of terrible liturgies done in those days, too.

Beyond all this, why don't you commit to going to the seminary and being one who serves the Liturgy with such reverence and devotion that people are drawn to where you are and have their faith built up by you?

Try for Lent to overlook the things that bother you. Offer this as an obedience to Christ for just these 40 Days. Then at Holy Pascha offer it to Him as a way of life.

BOB
Teen,

I agree with Crule's post and with Bob�s post. Both are rich with experience and wisdom.

I know what it is like to attend Mass with bad liturgy. I also know what it's like to attend Mass with liturgy that is correct (i.e., that is done according to the rules) but that is not to my personal taste. And, I also know that is hard to make that distinction sometimes.

My two pieces of advice:

(1) Pray for the priest who irritated you. In my opinion, writing the priest would be a waste of time. Praying for the priest, however, would be immensely useful: to him and to you. It will counter the devil's promptings to hold anger in your heart. (I know, that is easier said than done.) And, it will also help the priest.

(2) If you haven't done so yet, try attending Mass / Divine Liturgy in a variety of settings. This would do two things.

First, it will hopefully help you find a place where *YOU* fit in. That is important. Until you find a place where you fit in, you will feel out of sorts and unable to focus on much else during the liturgy.

Second, once you find a place to fit in, you will be able to look back on all the other places you visited and you will be able to appreciate them for what they are. Catholic means universal; as James Joyce said, "Catholic means 'Here comes everybody.' " There are different kinds of people in the Catholic Church, and there are different ways (Roman Rite, Byzantine Rite, folk guitars or organ, etc.) to give and live and express the same whole Gospel.

Peace, brother. You're not the only one who has felt this disgust. I have too. And so have others. Just take heart: others have been where you are now, and (by the grace of Jesus Christ) we have found our way. You will too.

-- John

#164346 03/02/06 11:57 AM
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Teen,

Take it from a cradle Roman Catholic who grew up after VATII. What you describe is not at all an abuse (I have seen real liturgical abuses including real improvisations in the Euch Prayer)
In my time, I was quite the nitpicky liturgical purist (often with cause) but this can lead to great danger. Just look at some of the SSPX people and how narrow minded and toxic some can be. I used to be there. Please, do not go down that route! You are too youthful and balanced!


Peace,
Brian

#164347 03/02/06 12:04 PM
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Dear Teen Logo,

I'm not in a position to advise any Latin Catholic here or anywhere!

But I remember attending a Mass at the Martyrs' Shrine during the Papal Visit at WYD 2002.

I was waiting for the papal party (everyone without the Pope) to arrive and so stayed for the Mass as the Father Director invited me to stay.

The music was done in such a way that I, who attended RC schools all my life, literally felt sick to my stomach.

I had no control over it and I had to leave quietly before something really bad was to happen.

Frankly, I prefer the Eastern Church and her sober, beautiful liturgy.

Save the rock music for rock concerts, I say!

Alex

#164348 03/02/06 12:47 PM
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Thanks for all the replies, y'all.

Theophan,

Thank you for taking the time to post such helpful words.

I will probably take John's advice for now and simply pray for the priest.

Anyway, I do want to make it clear, as I said before, I'm not looking for or expecting a perfect liturgy.

But it is my right as a Catholic to attend a Mass that follows the rubrics. My home parish does this! The only improper thing done in my home parish is holding hands during the Our Father which, thank God, my priest is going to try and put and end to, charitably, some time in the near future. And all this at a NO parish. I don't much like the NO Mass, but as long as it's done correctly, like at my home parish, I have nothing but happy thoughts about everyone involved!

Anyway, the priest at the Catholic Center was about in his late 50s or early 60s. My priest is in his mid-30s. I think both are fairly representative of their generations as far as liturgical innovation goes. :p

Logos Teen

#164349 03/02/06 12:47 PM
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LT

As someone who's seen virtually everything irreverant you can imagine in the Archdiocese of Chicago, my suggestion would simply be to avoid such a service. The service you witnessed is the way it is, because that's how the priest likes it, and you're not going to convince him to rectify matters. Only God can do that.

Never having to put up with such spectacles is a big reason I'm so fond of attending Divine Liturgy at a Ukrainian Rite parish, so perhaps you should look east if there's anything close.

Totally agree with you Dr Alex. Let's keep the rock music out of the churches. I remember pulling up in front of church one Summer Sunday for a Latin Mass, and inside my car with the windows closed, my stereo was blasting out Jimi Hendrix's "Voodoo Chile", 5 minutes later I shifted into total Latin Mass mode.

#164350 03/02/06 01:19 PM
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Hi,

Quote
First, besides the campy guitar-hymns, there were some serious problems I had. I'm not even going to bring up the guitars to him since that is, strictly speaking, not a liturgical abuse (to my knowledge anyway). I suppose I could point out how Vatican II states the the organ should have pride of place, etc. but I figure that's a lost cause.
Not only that, I think it is out of place.

Guitar is an approved instrument for liturgical music in the Latin Church and the fact that you do not like it does not affect that.

Quote
First, the Creed was not recited. I don't know if this is an abuse or not in a regular weekday Mass. I have a feeling it isn't. If not, I won't mention it.
The Creed is only appropriate for Sundays and Solemnities.

Since Ash Wednesday is neither, then reciting the Creed would have been a liturgical abuse.

Quote
Secondly, during the Canon, the priest completely left out the phrase, "All life, all holiness comes from You."

Thirdly, he left out "martyrs" in the phrase "With the Apostles, martyrs, and all Your Saints..."
Before you complain about any of this, make sure the priest was NOT following one of the approved Eucharistic Prayers.

It is fairly common for priests to select one of the "Penitiential" Eucharistic Prayers for Ash Wednesday and since they are not otherwise very popular they could strike us as odd.

Quote
Fourthly, no one kneeled for the Consecration but me. I'm pinning this on the priest because for the other parts in the Mass he clearly indicated when people should sit, stand, etc. This is the biggest problem for me. Not kneeling for the Consecration is like spitting in Our Lord's face ISTM.
This is odd, and it does seem to be incorrect. However, I wouldn't go as far as you go in its symbolism.

Certainly not in a forum with a good number of Byzantine Christian members who, according to their liturgical discipline, do not kneel at all during Sundays and Eastertide, not even for the Eucharistic Prayer.

Quote
Fifthly, during the imposition of ashes, the impositors said something like "Repent and you shall be forgiven" or something of the like. Now, I've only ever heard "Remember, Man, that you are dust, and to dust you shall return." Is this another legitimate option?
Well, THE normative formula is: "Repent, and believe in the Gospel". I have heard variantions that say "Repent, and be [more] faithful to the Gospel".

The formula you quote is still in use in some places, but is considered rather "obsolete".

Quote
I'm sorry, but all this is not conducive to a spiritually-fulfilling Mass. My only recourse to any kind of comfort is that Our Lord is truly present there in the Sacred Species.
Yeah, if only that could be more important than the rest of the stuff.... wink

Quote
It was an occasion of sin for me (negative thoughts about the priest and others during the Mass), and therefore I believe I, in my own poor judgment, received the Eucharist while in a state of sin, thanks to these shenanigans.
It wasn't me, Lord. It was the woman you gave me.

It wasn't me, Lord. It was the snake.

If it was really their fault, then it is not yours and you should not be so hard on yourself.

Now, if it was not quite their fault, then perhaps you should not be so quick to point fingers at them.

Quote
My question is, how should I approach the priest in this forthcoming e-mail? I don't want to sound reactionary or accusatory, but I want these things to be explained. I'm really sick of it all, and if continues I'll just make my way every Sunday and holy day down to the SSPX church. However, I want to give this Catholic Center a chance, and a chance to actually do what our Church asks of it.
Well, the first thing I would do is to ask myself if it's really my place to give a parish or chapel or whatever, "a chance to actually do what our Church asks of it".

Regardless, I agree with you that worship in a place that doesn't welcome you is very hard, so perhaps you're right and you should look for another place more suitable to your spiritual needs.

Quote
So, any advice? And don't try telling me not to write him 'cause it's happening for sure! wink
Well, you must do what you must do.

That doesn't mean you're right in doing so, but you would not be the first one to insist in learning these things the hard way.

Have a blessed Lent (or at least the rest of it).

Shalom,
Memo

#164351 03/02/06 02:28 PM
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Teen:

"But it is my right as a Catholic to attend a Mass that follows the rubrics. . .

Anyway, the priest at the Catholic Center was about in his late 50s or early 60s. My priest is in his mid-30s. "

Garrett--

Take a deep breath and take a look at a few realities that enter the picture here.

1. The priest assigned to the Catholic Center is probably firmly convinced that this is the only way to relate to people your age and keep them in the Church, regardless whether his theory is right or wrong. (Been there; experienced that; long past--thank GOD!!!)
2. The age difference explains more than you know. Those of the age of 50s and 60s went through the seminary when everything was an experiment. Unfortunately many never got out of that mold. They are indifferent to instructions from Rome to the contrary, especially when it comes to the latest rubrics that come with the Third Typical Edition of the Roman Missal: the General Instruction was approved in 2000 and many places still haven't bothered to obtain a copy of the translation. You parish priest represents a new generation who grew up on the outlandish excesses and have committed to Christ anyway. They seek to restore a reverence to worship that has been sadly lacking for so long in so many places. Pray for both.
3. Try going to Liturgy off campus if that's possible. My daughter did just that when she lived on a Catholic campus. There the feminists were firmly in charge and worship was often like having "fingernails scrapped across the blackboard" when it came to language and hymns changed beyond recognition.
4. Pray for this chaplain. Sometimes it isn't their fault. At my daughter's school, the president told the priest how things were to be done when he was "interviewed" for the post--even though he'd been assigned by the bishop of the place.

Resolve this, too:

I can't change anyone but me. I can see beyond the worst to see the bruised, but glorious Face of Christ looking for me. He's already been here and done an awesome thing for me--destroying death, opening the door to Resurrection, promising to come back FOR ME. Christ would have done all He did even if everyone else were perfect and didn't need Him; He'd still have come and done it JUST FOR ME. I can do anything that He calls me to do JUST FOR HIM because of what HE DID FOR ME. Beyond all this, you aren't responsible for the way another abuses the Liturgy. You are responsible for how you react. Put aside bitterness, enmity, anger, and all the other human reactions that the Enemy uses to tempt us to distance us from God. Put on the Lord Jesus Christ and have a good Lent.

We care about you here.

BOB

#164352 03/02/06 02:45 PM
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LT,

There are imperfections through out the Church, the evil one will use them to distract us from doing what we should be doing in or out of Church...he got me last night...please do not fall into spiritual anger like me.

I have been ignoring my formation lessons and must try to reduce my Internet journeys...

Chow for now...

james

#164353 03/02/06 04:52 PM
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Memo said: Guitar is an approved instrument for liturgical music in the Latin Church and the fact that you do not like it does not affect that.
I know that, Memo. That's why I said I didn't think it was a liturgical abuse. I said earlier, if it's okay for the guitar to be used, then that's just my poor luck! I would never complain to the priest about that, since it's my personal problem and not his.

Quote
Memo said: The Creed is only appropriate for Sundays and Solemnities.
Thank you for pointing this out again. I believe that was mentioned earlier.

As far as the Eucharistic Prayer, I'll look into it, but the two phrases I mention come from one of the four standard Eucharistic Prayers, and he left them out.

Quote
Memo said: Certainly not in a forum with a good number of Byzantine Christian members who, according to their liturgical discipline, do not kneel at all during Sundays and Eastertide, not even for the Eucharistic Prayer.
Forgive me, but that seems totally irrelevant to the question at hand. This is a Latin Rite parish; I am a Latin Rite Catholic. We do not, as you well know, follow the same liturgical disciplines as our Byzantine brothers and sisters.

And even if none of that mattered (which it does), this was neither a Sunday nor Eastertide.

Quote
Memo said: The formula you quote is still in use in some places, but is considered rather "obsolete".
By whom is this considered obsolete? Yourself?

As per the Adam and Eve parallel, I don't think that's fair. I admitted that I received by my own "poor judgment," i.e. I take full responsibility of this sin. It's too bad that I let these things get to me, but that doesn't shift the blame. I never blamed those things on my receiving, and for you to imply that I did is not very honest.

Anyway, I've sinned far worse than our First Parents every dreamed of, I'm sure! wink

Anyway, to those that recommend I go East: the closest Eastern parish is no closer than the closest TLM to me and, being a Latin Catholic, I prefer to worship in the Latin Rite. I love the East, but am wholeheartedly a Latin Catholic and do not wish to make an Eastern Catholic parish my home. But visiting occasionally is a great joy. I'm sure many of you feel the same way about being Easterners but visiting a Latin parish.

Anyway, I will ponder these thoughts offered by all of you, especially Theophan and Harmon.

Thank you to all of you for your help. I want to serve the Lord in humility; all I want is perhaps easier access to the road on which I should travel! wink

I'll offer it up for the good of the Church if I ever attend there again! Otherwise I'll just have to travel a bit more.

Logos Teen

#164354 03/02/06 06:03 PM
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Dear Teen Logo,

I think you should join an EC parish!

If you join the UGCC, you'll have the best of both Eastern and Western Churches to boot! smile

And Incognitus might help with this - I understand he likes monstrances . . .

And your statement on sinning "far worse than our First Parents ever dreamed of . . ."

Are you addicted to apples or what?

Alex

#164355 03/02/06 06:32 PM
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I want to serve the Lord in humility...
Teen,
Relax my man. Perhaps your statement above can be your theme for this year's Lenten Journey. You are off to a good start. Keep the Fast, pray, especially the Prayer of St Ephraim, and seek humility. This may just be the lesson God has put before you.
Sam

#164356 03/02/06 06:53 PM
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Teen you are right that the priest does not ahve the right to privatise the liturgy. The Holy see has been making it quiet clear that the Liturgy belongs to the whole church and any private alterations that are unauthorised do not embelish the liturgy. Cardinal Arinze put out an instruction with abuses that were to cease imeadiately about a year ago (I wish I could find my copy). I was very good reading.

I repeat my earlier advice of getting yourself informed of the Latin Rite rules for the Liturgy. That document by Cardinal Azinze was good reading and I think you would appreciate the it. By all means pray for them man he is probably a product of the seminary system of his day. Get an Ordo so you know what is supposed to happen. I get my Dad one every year now and his PP lives in fear of him now. wink

ICXC
NIKA

#164357 03/02/06 07:49 PM
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The document you speak of is I believe is "Redemptionis Sacramentum" - this instruction pointed out many things regarding "profaning the Eucharist" and reminded the clergy and faithful of various things - such as what the sacred vessels should be made of, that you don't fraction the Precious Blood, and others.

Also, of course, the GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) is available at the USCCB's website. It's the complete GIRM with the "American Church's Norms."

But be careful - as much as you want, crave, and deserve good liturgy, be careful that you don't turn into a pharisee and "be all caught up in the method, but lose sight of the message" - I've been there, and I continue to pray humility.

Pope Benedict and his curia are about to put the smack down on abuse anyway. Everyone is wondering when he's gonna start dropping the hammer - and I say that he's "cooking the frog" - you can't drop a frog into boiling water - he'll jump right out. You put him in cold water and slowly turn the heat..."

Teen - if you want to drive to Lawrenceville this Sunday, I can take you the rest of the way to Roswell. PM me if you want to swap phone numbers. I'm only 35 so it won't be like you're riding with the old geezers.

#164358 03/02/06 09:09 PM
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Crule said: Pope Benedict and his curia are about to put the smack down on abuse anyway.
I hope so. I'll believe it when I see it! wink

Logos Teen

#164359 03/02/06 09:24 PM
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Dear Teen,

Perhaps this will provide some consolation to you.

www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0600806.htm [catholicnews.com]

Remember Vatican II is still in its infancy and it will take time to straighten out errant perceptions. Try if you can to view the glass as being half full rather than half empty.

Bill

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