www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ruthenian History & Maps

Hi,

I could use some help with Ruthenian History and finding a picture of the flag. The webs sites I have pulled up so far, lean towards Ukraine history.I will be using this for the local Ethnic Festival. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Nicky's Baba

Here are some good sites with good links that will keep you busy.

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/
http://www.lemko.org/rusyn.html
http://www.iarelative.com/slovakia.htm
http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/memb.htm
http://www.tccweb.org/
http://www.legacyrus.com/

djs

DJS,

Thanks so much for your help. God Bless.

Nicky's Baba

Dear Nicky's Baba,
I guess the problem is with your terminology. There is a Ruthenian Church but not a "Ruthenian" people (unless perhaps you're using British English). Ruthenians in the classic ethnic sense are the modern-day Ukrainians.

On the other hand, there is a people called Rusyns (Carpatho-Rusyns) which are also known as Rusnaks, Carpatho-Russians, etc. -- also spelled in some circles as "Rusins".

You would have a hard time finding any books published in the United States about a people called Ruthenians (except publications from the Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute-HURI which use that terminology to describe pre-19th-century Ukrainians). Now, about the people called Carpatho-Rusyns on the other hand, you will find a lot. Even the Ruthenian Church in the USA, the one time it published a book about the ethnic group (rather than about the "Ruthenian Church") it was a book entitled Byzantine Rite Rusins in Carpatho-Ruthenia and America, not "Byzantine Rite Ruthenians..."

I applaud your efforts, but to set up a booth at an ethnic festival to represent a people called "Ruthenians" seems kind of strange (to me). If you used a term like Rusyns or Carpatho-Rusyns, you could at least have some books to which to refer your visitors to read about such people. With a "Ruthenian" booth you would either be representing a religious community (of course, that is what you seem to be doing if you don't have any actual Rusyns involved in this activity) or a people now known as Ukrainians.

I'd recommend that if you are doing a church booth, then do a church booth and don't tie it to an ethnic group. On the other hand, if you are really doing an ethnic booth, then please use a name which they themselves use and by which others can identify them (or find more information about them).

Sorry to be so confusing. It's after 2 a.m. and I just drove 250 miles.

Lemko Rusyn,

The both is at an ethnic festival but is being sponsored by the Church.I am calling it Ruthenian to give higher profile to the Church in the local community. I feel its worth a thousand newspaper ads. When the people of this Church came here there was a distinction between Uke & Ruthenian other wise why 2 different Churches? I wonder how the people in the Ruthenian Church in present day Europe would feel about being ethnically tagged Ukrainian? And I don't mean their official citizenship.
Nicky's Baba

My point is that the Rusyn people never called themselves "Ruthenians." In English they use(d) the terms Rusyns/Rusins, Carpatho-Rusyns, or Carpatho-Russians.

If you are talking about a people, then any people called Ruthenians are simply Ukrainians (as the web sites you encountered when looking for info on "Ruthenians" made clear). The "Ruthenian" people (Ukrainians) and the "Ruthenian Church" are not the same.

Lemko Rusyn, please allow me to disagree with you in part.

I agree that "Ruthenian" is not the proper traditional term, but I have noticed that there seems to be increasing confusion as to the appropriateness of the "Ruthenian" designation to those who have been traditionally called Carpatho-Rusins, etc. Some of this, I'm sure, is the designation of our Church as "Ruthenian". This is confusing to second and third generation Americans who claim to be Ruthenian from the area XYZ (after all, they go to a Ruthenian Church).

Certainly in the past English speakers considered "Carpatho-Rusin" etc. as the proper designations for this group of people. Currently, however, more from this particular ethnic group call themselves "Ruthenian". Now Ukraine is a nation and those who are now called Ukrainians who once considered themselves to be "Ruthenians" seem less inclined to explain to Americans the difference between "Carpatho-Rusins" and "Ruthenians".

Although not traditional, those who have been called "Carpatho-Rusins" are frequently being called "Ruthenian" and this meaning of Ruthenian is becoming the standard designation for this ethnic group in English.

I agree it traditionally represents another group, but language and terms change, even for ethnic groups. I'm not saying that I support the shift, but when it happens there isn't much one can do about it.

For those Carpatho-Rusins still living in Europe, most call themselves Poles, Slovaks, Ukrainians or Hungarians. I think that is a bad situation and I certainly hope that more and more in Europe and elsewhere claim there true heritage, but I'm not sure the situation will change much anytime soon.

Based on one person on the Internet who runs a website and spreads disinformation about those who use the term Rusyn?

Besides, most Americans who have an ethnic origin in the Ruthenian Church believe they are Czechoslovakian [sic] or Austrian/Byzantine/Slavish/whatever, not Ruthenian, Rusyn, Ukrainian or anything denoting Eastern Slavdom.

Again, "more"--based on what/whom? I don't know a single person who identifies him/herself as Ruthenian as an ethnic term (except the one troublemaker I allude to above--not anyone who posts here, so no need to try to figure it out), and I assure you I know far more of these people than you could ever hope to. Can you point me to some books about these ethnic Ruthenians from southeastern Poland, eastern Slovakia, Zakarpatska Oblast of Ukraine?

Even the Byzantine Metropolia of Pittsburgh, in their published directory/history from 1999 (which will likely be their final word on the subject since that church is "post-ethnic"), used the term Rusin.

By whom? In the Queen's English? Or in North America, where the vast majority of the English-speaking "Ruthenians" live? Who writes about these people, and what are they called?

Encyclopedia of Rusyn History and Culture [utppublishing.com]

Number of entries that begin with "Ruthenian": one. ("Ruthenians")

And one cross-reference: "Ruthenian Greek Catholic Exarchate".

In the "Book"? "Clash of the Titans" Fr. Stockert refers to the people as sub-Carpathian Ruthenians or Rusins. I have read other places the people of this Church referred to as Ruthenians.In Fr.Zugger's book "The Forgotten" on page 372 refers to Ruthenia as a province.So for me there was a place, there was a people. When the people of that area of Eastern Europe ( whatever their ethnic terminology preference)came to this country they identified with and built their lives around the Ruthenian Church. I feel comfortable presenting it this way to the local community.

Nicky's Baba

Using the "medieval" misnomer Ruthenian for Carpatho-Rusyns makes as much sense as calling the Irish "Hibernians" or calling Ukrainians "Little Russians". In the langauge of the East Slavic peoples of the Carpathians, they have always identified themselves as "Rusyny" which is Rusyns in English.

Ung-Certez

In the churches I have been I have met quite a few people calling themselves Ruthenian. I have met others who are a part of this group calling themselves Slovaks and Poles, as my wife's family identify themselves. I have also seen many books from those who are not experts on the region who refer to the area of Eastern Slovakia as "Ruthenia". As a matter of fact, just yesterday I noticed a reference in a sausage recipe book where Eastern Slovakia was labeled as such.

I want to emphasize that I am NOT arguing that using this term in this way is currently acceptable. If, however, the "common Joe" continues to represent this group of people as "Ruthenians", American English will have changed to adopt this as an acceptable, if not exclusive, term.

If everyone calls an elephant a "gray cat" in everyday speech, writing, etc. and the use of the term "elephant" ceases to be used, the animal must be called a "gray cat" in order for a person to communicate to another the idea of "elephant" (or "gray cat", whichever the case may be).

In other words, can a group of people be called something misleading against their will? Well, when I was a kid in Oklahoma I went to the "Indian" hospital. I can assure you that none of my relatives came from India.

Should you correct those who misuse the term? Certainly! Especially if you want to maintain the integrity of the meaning of the original term. But you also have to be thick skinned in the United States. After all, one of my coworkers loves the Redskins (we don't have any churches called "The Redskin Church") and he's a heck of a guy.

I really think the "Ruthenian" designation for a non Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic Church is a big part of the problem. "Oh, you're Byzantine Catholic! Do you go to the Ukrainian or Ruthenian Church?"

As an afterthought, why DO Ukrainians call themselves that and not Ruthenians? I would think they would prefer "Ruthenia" to "Border". Perhaps it's another case of a people being called something the wrong thing (and certainly that wrong thing is politically charged) for so long that they accepted it themselves.

I'm not being sarcastic, that's just the way language works. It does have a political impact, and those who feel the term "Ruthenian" should not be used should provide an alternative; preferably a SINGLE alternative. I would also suggest pursuing the change of the name of the Church.

For some time now, the Library of Congress library
system of cataloging has adopted Rusyn and Carpatho-Rusyn as the term they use to catagorize books and periodicals that describe
"these Eastern Slavs from the Carpathians".
The term "Ruthenian" is nothing more than an antiquated religious juridictional misnomer. My father is 86 yrs. old and the son of Rusyn immigrants. The term he has always heard used by the immigrants all his life was Rusyn. They never heard of the word "Ruthenian" until the Byzantine Catholic Exarchate of Pittsburgh started using it as an incorrect English/Latin translation of Rus' and Rusyn sometime in the early 1960s.

Ung-Certez