www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Martin Luther's descendants

LOL

As well as the British Royal Family.

This is why I don't have a true claim to fame!

I'm also related to a young actress named Katie Holmes (you might know of her).

ChristTeen287

�I am definitely a descendent of Martin Luther, the Reformer....�

This does not surprise me, given the rather �rebellious� tone of some of Joe�s posts! (Actually, rebellious is not quite the correct term... perhaps, "pugnacious," right Joe? I can hear them searching for their dictionaries! )

Reminds me of an incident that occurred during a European History lesson at the preparatory seminary I attended. We were covering the Reformation, and discussing apostolic succession. Father was explaining that each current bishop can trace his lineage back to one of the apostles. I asked something to the effect of, �but, is there proof?� (I wasn�t trying to be ornery--just asking for a citation.)

Father�s response was, �Yes... MARTIN!� His emphasis was well taken, and I shut up.

But I want to address the factoid that Alex snuck in there: �Martin Luther returned to the Catholic Church a short while before his death and was received back by the Bishop of Salzburg.�

But, is there proof, Alex, is there proof?

Dear Martin . . .

I was at a conference at which Lutheran pastors were in attendance - and this is where I first of this.

In the late seventies, there was actually a movement within the Catholic Church to rehabilitate AND canonize Martin Luther as a Catholic saint . . .

Articles were written in Catholic journals that I reviewed in between sociology classes in the university library.

In addition to the presentation of the story of Luther's return to the Church at Salzburg (along with his wife, a former nun and Joe Thur's GGGGGGG Great Grandmother ), the articles contained correspondence with Vatican officials requesting that a "Cause" for Luther begin, following his rehabilitation.

At one point, there is mention made of a request to Pope Paul VI to lift the anathema against Luther - Paul VI apparently responded positively and one local newspaper article in Toronto at that time was titled, "Pope to lift excommunication on Martin Luther."

Oh, there were also private invocations of "Our Father among the Saints, Brother Martin . . ."

I'd have to go back and dig for these articles, but they were definitely in a Catholic journal.

It's not a topic that deeply interests me, but the fact remains that Luther remained substantially Catholic throughout his life, even though he and the popes of his day "had words."

Luther kept an image of the Mother of God in his room always, he always prayed the Rosary and kept his beads with him wherever he went. It is clear from his commentary on the "Magnificat" that he believed in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of the Mother of God.

It is also a fact that modern day High Church Lutherans are going back to the Rosary et al. on the basis (although not exclusively) of the writings of the young Luther etc.

Finally, regarding your comment comparing Cantor Joe Thur to Martin Luther . . .

Leave my best friend and buddy alone, will you?!

Alex

Dear ChristTeen,

That would also make you related to St Columba or Columcille, Abbot of Iona!

Alex

Dear Friends,

I have read of the Lutherans that they are "Catholics without the Pope." I was invited during the recent Christmas season to a Concert of Carols at a local Lutheran Church. I can't recall having been in any Lutheran Church before. I sang along some, but during the evening I thumbed through one of the prayer books. Right there in the middle was the Nicene Creed (Western version).

I was somewhat surprised that they would profess the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" part, as I had never heard a Protestant congregation speak the Creed as we do. I guess they don't see themselves as Protestants, but as part of the true Apostolic Church.

I'm also surprised to hear that some Lutherans pray the Rosary. I thought that Marian devotions were one of the biggest stumbling blocks between Catholics and Protestants. Maybe the differences are less than I thought.

Have a Blessed Day!!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Is King Brian related to St. Columba?

For what it's worth, both the Nicene and Apostles' Creed are in our United Methodist Hymnal and are recited at each service. I'm sure it's the same with the Anglicans and Lutherans, and probably most Presbyterians.

ChristTeen287

Is King Brian related to St. Columba?

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Of course i am!!!!!!!

I am related St. Vasyl Lipivsky.

Also to Jurij Tiutiunnyk (I think only the Ukes here will know who he is).

I will also say I am related to Volodymyr Velykiy just to say I have some royal blood

Dear John,

As I'm supposed to be job-hunting, I just wanted to briefly say that Lutherans have their "High Church, Low Church" divisions as do Anglicans and others, as we know.

The Lutheran Churches of Sweden and Finland are as close to RCism as all get out and they maintain a hierarchy et al.

I have a book entitled, "A Protestant looks at Mary" written by a Lutheran Pastor who says the Rosary and is urging is fellow Christians to do the same!

A number of very High Church Lutherans in Germany that I know personally invoke the Saints and are, in almost every which way, as Catholic and Orthodox as we!

Alex

"This does not surprise me, given the rather "rebellious" tone of some of Joe's posts!"

Martin,

Mother Angelica's EWTN media outlet once referred to our late Archbishop as having a "showdown" once with Rome. I take this as a complement. Welcome aboard, my friend!

Keeping focused on the mission with Byzantine Eyes,
Joe T.

Alex,

You are right about the high-church and low-church Lutheran communities. I once attended a play at a Lutheran church while in seminary and later took a tour and had discussions with the Lutheran minister/deacon? The interior of their temple was very prayerful and respectable. He told us that they were proud of their going back to a more "liturgical" church and thought it was ironic or unhelpful to see the Latins "going the other way" where they had already been. Their seminary students also consider St. John Chrysostom with high veneration and found themselves at home when we celebrated a liturgy on St. Nicholas' feast day. It was the Latin seminarians who thought the liturgy was "too long" and couldn't wait to get to lunch and not the Lutheran seminarians! My visit to one of their places of worship (20 years ago) was an eye-opener. My classmates were almost tempted to genuflect upon entering their temple. Nothing was structured off-line or obtuse like what they were used to.

What was mentioned about the 'sola scriptura' error? Will this prove to be a stumbling-block to recuperate Luther?

Joe

Dear Cantor Joe,

For the record, I myself hope to one day be as faithful and obedient to our Church as set by your high example!

There is the Catholic-Lutheran group called "Die Sammlung" or "The Gathering" that came out of the Second World War.

They study their respective theologies to come to a perfectly Lutheran presentation of theology that is also perfectly Catholic - and they've come up with some amazing Catholic insights generated by Luther!

"Sola Scriptura" is a principle in Luther that is today accepted by Catholic theologians.

It does not, in and of itself, reject Tradition, but sees Scripture as the "heart" of Catholic Tradition.

Certainly, Luther accepted many aspects of tradition that were not mentioned in the Bible - as long as they were not opposed to any biblical principles or teachings.

I think it is most germane in the rehabilitation of any historical personage to consider the context in which they lived - as I know you enthusiastically agree and have said so.

There were many things that Luther opposed in the medieval Catholic Church that Vatican II would have agreed with him in opposing as well.

The Roman reform of indulgences was, as is no surprise, inspired by Luther.

Even the later Lutheran confessions saw Lutheranism as a reform movement WITHIN the Catholic Church and, when pressed, they went with RC theology rather than with Protestant views.

Transubstantiation was never condemned by Luther or even his later followers who often deflected from the fundamentally Catholic views of Luther.

One view of Luther I once read was that Catholics are MORE upset with his having left his monastic foundation to get married rather than with his teachings.

Had he remained celibate, some say, Luther would have been for the Church in Germany another Boniface!

Other Catholic teachers have even referred to Luther as "Our Father among the Saints" and the like.

I once heard a Latin priest quoting at length from a "Brother Martin" until I realized that he was quoting from Luther . . .

He had a picture of Martin Luther on his desk with a halo!

Pictures of Luther with a halo or else with a dove were made and distributed at Lutheran rallies.

It was noted that Lutherans took those pictures and kissed them as those of a saint.

All in all, had Luther been born in the post-Vatican II Church of today, he would never have left it.

What makes his rehabilitation sometimes difficult is comparing his criticisms of the beliefs and practices of local customs - as compared to what the Church actually and formally believed.

As one priest told me once, the Church allowed a lot of bad theology to "float out there" without checking it.

That made the coming of a Martin Luther, Jan Hus and others almost inevitable.

Luther also began studying the Eastern Church and, in a debate with an RC theologian who said something disparaging about the Christian East, Luther chided him and said that the Eastern Church was, by far, the "Better Half" of the Church - that is where the term "Better Half" came from!

The Church is already rehabilitating Hus in a formal way - with the Pope publiclly apologising and sorrowing over his burning. Savonarola has had his Cause reintroduced as well.

St Gregory Palamas himself was once called a "Quietist" by RC theologians - this was recently recalled by the Pope - but today he is in the RC Calendar of Saints.

And the great Meister Eckhart had his anathema lifted . . .

It is just a matter of time before your GGGGGG-Great Grandfather follows them too!

The independent Orthodox group that follows the Lutheran Rite that I mentioned above already venerates Martin Luther . . .

Alex

Before we go canonizing Luther, let's not forget about his explosive temper, his utter contempt for those who disagreed with him, his extreme anti-semitism, and I have also heard that he either presided over or condoned of horrible persecutions of the anabaptists.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ404.HTM

This is an interesting read on Martin Luther.

Columcille

Surely, it is Erasmus we should admire more then Luther? Erasmus saw the great need for severe reform in the Western Church but never joined the Lutherans. He once noted the "severe and smug" faces of Protestants leaving Church, thinking that they were justified by Faith and did not need to show mercy.

Dear Columcille,

Oh, I thought you were describing St John Chrysostom or St Cyril of Alexandria who was implicated in a plot to assassinate a woman pagan philosopher in Egypt that constantly bested Cyril in public debate!

The Popes of Luther's day gave as good as they got from him . . .

And remember how certain Councils would end in fisticuffs . . .

Even St Nicholas tried to teach Arius a lesson by giving him a shot to the chops!

St Flavian died from his battle wounds at the hands of St Dioscoros of Alexandria . . .

As for anti-semitism, you can find that in a number of Church Fathers too. It is basically a theological disagreement with Judaism, but today it is interpreted as anti-semitism just the same.

As for the slaughter of the Anabaptists, Lutherans (not Luther) went after them because Lutherans thought that if they removed the "Papal Tradition" from the Gospel as a requirement of faith, everyone would be Lutherans . . .

But that didn't work out that way and other Protestant bodies were born, bodies the Lutherans regarded as terrible heretics!

This is why on a number of points the Lutheran councils would openly say they side with Roman Catholicism!

I'm not out to canonize Luther. But he is held in high esteem by a number of RC theologs.

And we need to be fair to him and separate what he taught from what his later followers taught.

Luther himself would be shocked at what most Lutherans of today believe.

Alex