www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Something about Mary

Is there any other kind? Don't all Byzantine icons of the Theotokos have Jesus? That was one of the things that helped me understand. It's not Mary as MARY, it's Mary as the MOTHER OF GOD, it's her relationship to Jesus that defines her relationship to us.

Yes.

St. Louis de Monfort's True Devotion is an excellent example of TRUE Latin spirituality in Marian devotion, and has been firmly endorsed by our own Dr. Alex Roman.

I would recommend this book to everyone who is uncomfortable with Marian devotions. It would also be useful to those who want to compare "East" and "West" re: Mary. IMHO there are a lot more similarities than differences, polemics to the contrary notwithstanding.

Just a clarification, the Medjugorje movement does NOT represent traditional western Marian devotion. The alleged apparitions at this site have been condemned repeatedly at the diocesan level, and Catholic priests and parishes are FORBIDDEN by Rome from sending pilgrimage groups to Medjugorje (despite the fact that so many of them seem to be unaware or just don't care about this prohibition).

LatinTrad

In my former Latin Catholic days I always questioned my inability to "get into" the Marian devotions, and as has been mentioned many times already, I now feel much more comfortable with devotion to her in the East.

I still remember what suddenly dawned on me one day, during that transitional period when I was contemplating an official canonical transfer from the Latin church. It was not so much that all icons of the Theotokos also have Christ depicted. It was the position of Mary's hands. In most western statuary that I had seen, her hands were always at about waist level, palms facing outward, and forearms at a slight angle to the body, as if she were giving us herself as a gift, whereas most icons where she is holding Jesus, her hand is pointing toward him, showing us the true gift she gave us. From that moment on, everything else just fell into place.

Another endorsement for that book - I came to it after a long discussion with my Spiritual Director at that time - when I had been wrestling with understanding Mary's position - we talked for about 3 hours the day I finally admitted that I had problems with this - I couldn't understand how to pray the Rosary either - but at the same time I did understand how Mary had given me many favours - just one of which was my husband taking me to Lourdes after he had spent 7 weeks there with sick and dying pilgrims - and remember he is NOT a believer. Fr John's prescription that day was to read the book - I did and it was a real eyeopener.

Despite all that , I have to say - I prefer the way that the East looks to our beloved Mother - they honour her in a far more open way and it is less 'cloying' too - far more natural.

All this talk at times about the Imaculate Conception and the desire to spell out exactly what it means or does not mean really confuses me.

I have absolutely no doubt that as the Mother of Christ - She had to be free from sin or She would not have been chosen by the Father to be the Mother of the Son. To me that fact is all that is necessary.

Anhelyna - with another ramble

Thanks for the suggestion. I just ordered from Amazon. I have seen this book before and wondered about it but didn't have the guts to buy it and read it.

Jason

Mostly, but that's my point. In the west
she is very often illustrated or depicted alone. I prefer not to use that imagery for myself.

But in answer to your your specific question no, the next most popular icon of Mary that I am aware of is of her holding the veil of protection over something, as a sort of dedication. This derives from her being seen in a vision doing just that over Constantinople.

As for Montfortian spirituality, I have found it too much to take. Evidently people find a lot of value in it, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone inquiring about the Faith, and I don't follow it myself. I think his language goes way overboard.

Michael

Dear Michael,

That's fair ball!

But Pope John Paul II himself has firmly endorsed Montfortian spirituality and this is reflected in a number of his own apostolic letters and teachings.

I too once thought Montfort was "over the top." But I've since had an opportunity to read over his writings (there is an excellent compendium of them all, in addition to another volume that is a solid Catholic theological examination of his works that is online as well).

If we compare what Montfort wrote to the writings of Orthodox saints and to our own liturgical prayers, the Octoechos and others, we will see that it is Montfort who is following the Eastern spirituality and what appears to us sometimes as "over the top" is actually his borrowing of phrases from the Eastern Fathers, as our Father Gregory has so often shown here (God bless him!).

Montfort is essentially saying what Orthodox Catholics in East and West have always believed, that veneration for the Most Holy Mother of God is one of the best ways, if not THE best way, to deepen our union with the Incarnate Wisdom (Montfort's language), Jesus Christ.

As Pope John Paul II has said, this spirituality brings one into the Mystery of Christ and that of the Holy Trinity in a powerful way.

My favourite teaching of Montfort is that when the Holy Spirit finds a soul that is imbued with the Most Holy Virgin Mary, then He begins to do in that soul what He did in the Virgin Mary 2,000 years ago - He begins to form Jesus Christ in it.

It is solid incarnational theology and one can readily find similar devotional themes in someone like St Seraphim of Sarov et al.

But no one is, of course, forced to practice this spirituality!

For me, it brings home the reality of the Divine Incarnation in a way that is unlike any other.

It is of no consequence whether I approve it or not (thanks anyway, LatinTrad! ), the CHurch does and so does our Pope.

And Montfort should be given an open hearing by anyone considering him, by reading what he wrote, his life etc.

I think there are many phrases in Eastern hymnography that go well beyond Montfort in doing honour to the Virgin Mary!

But this all brings us closer to the Lord Jesus Who took His flesh from Her.

Try it, and see, is all I can say.

I did, and I'll never go back!

Alex

The Forge by St. Josemaria, on Struggle, Number 157

Mother, do not leave me! Let me seek your Son, let me find your Son, let me love your Son - with my whole being. Remember me, my Lady, remember me.


Her servant,
+Fr. Gregory

For those who do NOT find Montfortian spirituality as being over the top here is a quote from "The Marian Life"(the black notebooks) by Father Jacquier. He was a Religious who lived the Secret of Mary in depth by abiding always in the heart of the Virgin Mary like a little embryo. His writings are so simple and express his childlike dependence on her that structured his whole interior life. His was not a devotion to the Virgin Mary but a life lived at every moment with, through and in Her. It is the way of the "little one", as Father Jacquier refers to himself.

"We must thus form the habit of living continually in Mary, with abandonment. For that, be well convinced, that in the supernatural order, there is no distance. A true communion exists between us and our Mother: I believe in the communion of saints.

She is in us, spiritually present, and we are in her, and it is in her that we possess God. Let us live through faith in the Heart of our Mother: 'Christum habitare per fidem in cordibus vestris'. She is in me, I am in her, by an intimacy superior to that which exists between a mother and the little ones she bears in her womb; that being a material union; this being a spiritual communion. Oh! If only we think of it! 'I am in the heart of Mary', my so tender and so powerful Mother."

"It is there that divine love put me on the day of my baptism, and I don't think of it. It is there that God wants to communicate to me the superabundance of His life. Ah! Let us allow ourselves to be absorbed by the maternal love of Mary. It is a maternal love that she has for us. She thus loves each one with her whole heart. It is for me that she said her fiat, that she gave her Jesus and gave herself with Him, and it is over me that she is unceasingly leaning, or better, it is me whom she embraces in her Heart, like the little Jesus. Oh! let us have faith in the maternal love of Mary, total love for each of her children!
She loved me and gave herself for me. I must love her and give myself to her without reservation."

Now this is definitely over the top!! But as Alex said "once you try it you'll never go back." You simply can't!

In Her,
Chaire

I found St Louis de Montfort's, "True Devotion to Mary" to be good in substance, but his language is full of hyperbole and overreaction to the Protestant reformation.

Nevertheless, I did make a total consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary at our Archdiocesan Rosary Rally shortly after reading "True Devotion to Mary."

Paul

Dear Paul,

Actually, if one were to remove all the theological phrases in Catholicism that were a reaction to Protestantism, the entire Council of Trent would have to go out the window!

And I think that if we read Montfort in context, there is NO over the top at all in him.

To live our Christian life of commitment to the Lord Jesus in her and through her is to adopt HER great resignation to God's Will and love for Jesus.

It is to allow ourselves to be formed by her who, among all human beings, knew and knows the Lord Jesus best.

There were some Russian saints who actually prayed the "Hail Mary" all the time, even instead of the Jesus Prayer.

This prayer begins with Mary and ends with Jesus or, takes us on the ladder that is Mary to Christ in Heaven.

She always directs us to her Son. And when we go to her, she always says, as she did to the people at the Wedding at Cana, "Do whatever He tells you to" as a condition for her intercession, "They have no wine."

Whenever we go to Holy Communion, we taste of the New Wine of the New Testament that is the Precious Blood of Christ poured out for us.

The Mother of God is the medium that made the "inhominization" of God the Word possible and also the Mystery of Holy Communion possible.

And when we receive Holy Communion, we become like the Theotokos at her Annunciation.

Montfort teaches us to recite the "Magnificat" when we receive Jesus in Holy Communion.

There is no more wonderful experience of prayerful thanksgiving after receiving the Eucharist than reciting this prayer.

Try it, you'll like it!

I did it last night for the eve of Epiphany.

Simply Divine!!

Alex

I think Montfort goes "over the top," as well. When I read the book, I thought he went to excess. I don't know how much of that is because his devotion did cross the line to excess, or because it reflects the writing style of another age. For example, when I read St. Therese's book, I found it so sacharine I could barely stand it. But if you take her ideas out of that sickeningly-sweet writing style, it changes things and you begin to see her character and strength emerge. For myself, I find the Divine Liturgy contains all I need to know and believe in terms of Marian spirituality.

Dear Charles,

Actually, when one reads things in context, including historical context, they do become less sickening!

Alex

byzanTN,

I think the writing style of Montfort may be the difficulty for us 21st century humans (maybe the translation too).

Alex,

Reactions to Protestantism are fine. It's the overreaction that makes bad theology.

We are all children of Mary. I like your suggestion about praying the Magnificat.

Paul

Dear Paul,

Some think Vatican II was agreeing with Protestantism too much .

Really, the idea that Montfort is overreacting in any way is nonsense.

We may be uncomfortable with his writing style.

But I have yet to read an Eastern Father whose writing style I liked!

There is a book out that is a contemporary theological commentary on Montfort "Jesus Living In Mary."

It is online at the library of www.ewtn.com [ewtn.com]

This puts things in perspective from an historical point of view and is well worth the read.

Let's remember that the Pope, when he was a young man, COMPLETELY questioned why there should be devotion to Mary AT ALL.

But then, as he said, he read Montfort's work and discovered fresh perspectives.

He's followed Montfort's spirituality all his life, visited his tomb as Pope and raised his feast to universal status (also beatified Bl Marie-Louise Trichet, Montfort's friend and follower).

Alex