www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ukraine

Dear Friends,

I think that even if the whole world went against the gangster capitalists Kuchma, Yanukovych and their allies, DJM would still be quoting those dubious articles written by their Western disinformation agents.

(He writes in perfect English for a "Lvovian.")

It is amazing that DJM would volunteer to be one of their dupes.

I've personally met Yuschenko and "that woman oligarch."

To call them that is simply laughable.

I've also met Kuchma and about, say, over forty of his people over the years. I've also spoken to former disinformation agents who escaped to the West (they walked away from their delegations while they were here).

Speaking of oligarchs . . .

Anyway, perhaps if DJM ("Dunce Just Mouthing?") wore some orange, he'd see the light (?)

But I've already made a post above decrying that "fanatical Ukrainian orange movement" and that was just to give more credible equal time to the opponents of "those Western dupes and would-be oligarchs who are against Mother Russia."

Long live the Russian empire! Long live Putin and Yanukovych! Long live . . .

Just trying to be objective . . .

But it would be unfortunate if this turned into a merely intellectual discussion on politics.

This is a real event being shaped by people in the streets, a real revolution of people organized around an idea and a colourful symbol.

As a sociologist, I am fascinated by how this is coming together. As a Ukrainian, I am proud of Ukraine and its people, all of its citizens.

I'm also proud that Yanukovych, who is also Ukrainian, has agreed to new elections. He, at least, knows when he's lost a round of battle. And for that, I think he deserves commendation. I've no liking for the man and what he represents, mind you.

Ties with Russia will continue, as they are inevitable. This is about Ukraine moving westwards toward the EU which is where it wants to be. If Russia is the ally to Europe and the U.S. that it says it now is, that shouldn't be too hard of a pill to swallow.

Alex

A re-election would be detramental to the Orange Revolution.

Soon as the people leave Maidan Svobody to vote, I can garuntee the gov't won't let those people back into to shut down the city again.

The people need to stay there and keep pushing for Yushchenko's twice won victory.

You all should check out www.maidan.org.ua [maidan.org.ua] It has, in Ukrainian, troop movements to Russian special forces illegally landing in Ukrainian cities. They have a decent English section as well.

-uc

Alex,

Consider this quote:

"Our only weapon is our refusal" - (the late great) Michael Collins

Dear UC,

My own take on this is that the Kuchma people will remove Yanukovych ("cut bait" as politicos say) and blame him for their failure.

The Russian troops won't help them as they are there to protect a fading gangster-government (reflective of their own, in fact).

I predict the Russians will make no move on anyone as the Orange movement is doing everything peacefully and with the world watching intently.

Putin, the ultimate arbiter for Kuchma and his cronies, has burned too many bridges to screw up even more in this situation.

And the Orange movement now has thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and cadets on their side - people who can actually fight back "just in case."

And they will, if push came to kalashnikov.

They've nothing to lose right now.

But the Russians and the Kuchma gangster-capitalists have already lost so much - they are working hard with their disinformation people to try and salvage whatever they think is salvageable.

But not much really is . . .

We should all be proud of the courage of those people, Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusyans, Carpatho-Rusyns etc. Ukrainian citizens all, who have shown such dramatic courage of late.

And we should be grateful to the governments of the USA, Canada, UK and EU for not fearing to call a "spade a spade" and supporting the Orange movement for democracy in Ukraine, despite the cat-calls of the Russians and their disinformation allies - sore losers all and the Russians will be even more sore when the democracy movement flowers like an Orange blossom throughout Russia - and it will.

Some have written to me and referred to "my position" on the matter.

I would just like to say, and I think I'm speaking on behalf of yourself and others here, that we have no "position."

Our position is the position of the Orange democracy movement, the people in the streets who have risked all, knowing the potential danger for them personally, the position of the military cadets and soldiers who have defied their government, the journalists of the radio station who publicly told the world they refuse to lie any longer for the government, the priests who pray openly in the streets of Kyiv and Lviv (or "Kiev and Lvov" for those for whom symbols have little meaning).

Our position is supporting their position, a position of courage, heroism, vulnerability, faith and readiness to sacrifice all for the good of the future of THEIR country.

It is a position taken by the governments of the West. It is a position being supported by even liberal journalists here as well.

There is no other position here - only ill-will against those vulnerable people and a desire to deny them the same kind of rights and freedoms enjoyed by the nations in which we have the privilege of living in.

Alex

Once again, may God bless and protect the people of Ukraine, who are standing up for what they believe in, in a peaceable yet implacable manner. They are showing the world that violence and gangster governments will no longer be tolerated, and that violence and threatened violence have no place in a civilized, democratic government. Moreover, they are doing this in spite of great personal discomfort, hardship, and cold...all without violence on their part.

Gaudior, saying: God Bless Ukraina!

Just saw pictures on the news: supporters of Yushchenko in Orange and supporters of Yanukovych in Blue and White demonstrating peacefully SIDE BY SIDE in the capital of Ukra�na.

There is still hope...

Christian

I have been stunned reading the accounts of the last week or so. There, as far as I can see, has been no real trouble - and the potential was there for chaos, if not actual riots. The people of Ukraine and particularly Kyiv [ well , after all most of the publicised action has taken place there ] have behaved wonderfully - their self control has been an example to us all.

If reports have been correct - and I have no doubt that they were/are everyone has been fed - some of the tent dwellers even said it was better food than they woud have had at home.
They have had drinks and it was all orgainsed in a very orderly fashion. I also understand that some of the troops/police were not in fact fed as well as the crowds.

I was informed very early on that Russian Special Forces were present in Ukraine if not in Kyiv itself - so far they have not made their presence felt - please God it will continue to be 'un-felt'.

May St Michael continue to guard his people during these troubled times and afterwards too .

Anhelyna

The example shown by the Ukrainian peoples, of all ethnicities and political orientation, clearly signifies their attainment of nationhood.

Gone are the days when other powers could easily dictate the terms.

More power to Ukraina!

Amado

Dear Christian,

You have observed wisely!

The Yanukovich supporters know their man is on the way out - Yanukovich may still come out of this smelling like a real patriot and victim of Kuchma.

The Orange crowd has also been feeding members of the "Blue/white" crowd.

There's no need for violence anywhere there, both sides respect each other and, I will say, both sides know who is on the winning streak right now.

And the Yanukovich supporters know that the Orange movement will NOT persecute them in the least when Yuschenko, in the end, will win.

Yuschenko's parting words to me when I met him at the legislature were, "Remember to pray always for the people and country of your parents!"

I have always taken that as a command that I strive to fulfill!

Then we embraced and kissed thrice and when I said, "Glory to Jesus Christ!" He responded with "His Glory forever!"

Let's also remember that when Yuschenko took the symbolic presidential oath of office last week, he not only did so on a copy of the Ukrainian constitution, but on a copy of the Ostrozhka Bible, or the Bible of Prince Constantine of Ostrih, a great defender of Orthodoxy (whose relics in the Kyivan Caves Lavra were removed and burned by Latins who feared his glorification as a saint and rallying point of the Orthodox and who thought that by destroying his relics, the Orthodox wouldn't canonize him).

Yuschenko would be the first truly Christian President of Ukraine who would not be afraid to profess his Orthodox Christian faith publicly nor to make the Sign of the Cross with pride.

Alex

Dear Alex:

Behind a powerful and successful man is . . . a woman?

It seems the world's media are now only discovering (rediscovering) the clout of Yulia Tymoshenko, the forty-ish compleat woman-politician behind Yuschenko's presidential bid and the sychronized protests and your "Orange Revolution!"

Good for Ukraine to have emerging and dynamic leaders.

Amado

A photo posted at Brama.com :

"For us Donetsk is not the enemy; come over for some pyrohy"

http://www.brama.com/news/press/slideshow/2004/041128vl_kyivmaidan/

Dear Amado,

Ukrainian culture is matriarchal - no surprise that a woman has come to dominate in that entire situation over there!

The people calling her "oligarchical" probably can't stand it that a woman has outclassed them . . .

Alex

Soon after the election were over, Yanukovich sent militias into Kiev. They were left standing for two days without food. The orange crowd noticed the militias were hungry and decided to feed them. Striking coal miners from the East were treated the same way, as were many of the other 'paid demonstrators' from Eastern Ukraine. Many of them returned home only to praise the whole 'orange revolution' in Kiev.

EVERYONE in Kiev is participating in the care of the orange revolution participants. For example, the largest synagogue in Kiev has become a 24 hour per day cafeteria.

The front page of USA Today and the New York Times have feature photos (again) of the events. The papers say the crowds are swelling again and expected to ballon over the weekend when the rock concert marathon takes place in the Maidan (central square of Kiev).

Putin is again making more threats.

Divine liturgies and Christian prayers are being held in the open.

I.F.

It is not widely known, but Metropolitan Vladimir Sabodan of the UOC/MP blessed Yushchenko on November 8th. It will be interesting to see if the MP tries to disclipline Sabodan for that action. The RISU article is at http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;3549/

Yushchenko already had the blessings of Patriarch Filaret and His Beatitude Lubomyr, and hierarchs of the UAOC. At least as far as the major Christian denominations go, the matter seems to be closed.

Why would any hierarch support an atheist over a Christian? It doesn't make sense.

Further potential rifts within the UOC-MP can be seen at http://5tv.com.ua/eng/newsline/119/0/2582/ I don't get so-called "christians" campaigning for an atheist...

Diak,

That is very interesting.

I have met President Yushchenko on many occasions and have personally gone to church with him. He is a member of the UOC-KP and frequents the services at St. Michael's the Golden Domed Monastery just down the street from St. Sophia.

He is very supportive of the UGCC. I had the privelege of sitting next to him and his family at the Papal Divine Liturgy in Kyiv in 2001.

-uc