www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Unclothed Christ

Bridge Building's address is in VT, Monastery Icons in in OH. I ordered some icons from Monastery in the past, what do you guys think of them? The seem OK to me, though the icons are really just photos of icons glued to a piece of wood, not real icons. How much do real icons cost, anyway, and where does one buy them?

Domilsean,

If you enter Monastery Icons into the Forum Search thingie you will get a good set of resutls.

There certainly have been some unhappy feelings about their goods in the past . I'm honestly not sure if that still is the case.

Bridgebuilding - well you will have gathered that the reccommendation is to stay away from them

Now as to what the cost of a "real' icon actually is - the very easy answer is as much as you are willing to pay.

Having said that - if you know anyone who is going to Kyiv they would be able to get you one [ if you can trust their eye ] very much cheaper there thn in the USA and most certainly here. Oh - I believe it helps if you can take a Kyivan resident with you - then the price is not at the Tourist rate.

I have bought 2 very beautiful Icons that way - and frankly I would not have been able to do it over here - mine are intended as Ordination Presents .

Where can you find an Iconographer - well there are some on Byzcath - Medved , Iconophile , Rose 2 [ I think}

Anhelyna

Thanks for all of the replies to this post. I found the information most enlighting!

Thanks especially to KO63AP for your post.

Alice,
As you point out this matter is very subjective; there is nothing to "debate", but it is interesting to discuss. My opinion:

Like Rose2 I find Mr. Summers sculptures uninteresting, and have misgivings about bringing this modernistic work into a fine "neo-classical" (as one of the parishoners put it) cathedral. The depictions are so abstract that I only know that Jesus is stripped naked, rather than having a codpiece of figleaf) because the artists says so. The sculpture is hardly pornographic or even graphic. But it is suggestive of the humiliation of being stripped naked in public. This may not be the stuff of Eastern contemplation, but it is the very stuff of the western way of the cross.

It is also interesting to me that a protest of some 20 people made the NZ news. I think that these protestors got a lot of publicity for Mr. Summers, but should have organized within the Cathedral parish if they really wanted something done. They are also sore about being left out of the decision making process, as inevitably some folks are. People get very enotional about these things - even, as with us, when they are not directly involved.

My cradle parish is, from what I've heard, launching an extensive interior renovation. Can they get this done without major rifts - feelings hurt to the "I'll never set foot inside..." level. Probably not.

Dear domilsean,

"Monastery Icons" come from a questionable source. They seem to change names and move around as if they have somrthing to hide. I do know they do not belong to any canonical church, Catholic or Orthodox. I remember seeing them described here as "The McDonald's of Icons".
MOST of their stuff seems harmless to me and done according to the traditions of iconography, but their colors seem much brighter and many of their icons seem cartoonish. They are big with Latin Catholics because of their depictions of many western saints and themes and they can be found in some Eastern churches, also.

There are a few iconographers who post here, maybe one of them could help you out with more info.

Bill

Dear Henry,

The difference is that Jesus allowed himself to be crucified in order to redeem man through his sufferings and resurrection. Certainly if someone killed someone I love with a gun, I would not venerate it. The gun took life. The cross gave us life.

As for nudity in Icons, it wouldn't matter if it is truly an 'icon'. Unfortunately, the paintings I saw on the links, did not give me an uplifted feeling, but rather I felt very repulsed and oppressed by them. Something is definitely wrong.

It could be that the paintings are how the artist perceives Christ, making his work a reflection of himself. Certainly God's love did not shine through.

Zenovia

Bridge Building's address is in VT, Monastery Icons in in OH. I ordered some icons from Monastery in the
past, what do you guys think of them? The seem OK to me, though the icons are really just photos of
icons glued to a piece of wood, not real icons. How much do real icons cost, anyway, and where does one
buy them? [/QUOTE]

I once was curious as to the age etc. of an icon that was handed down to me. I was given the name of a dealer on this forum, but I can't seem to remember it.

Keep asking, someone's bound to pop up with it. Someone also mentioned an icon artist in Greece, and I also know that they can be 'written' in the monasteries there.

Zenovia

This is exactly the point I made. Jesus has willed to ascend the cross. This however includes the nudity, like it or not. Which explains the reason why this is different from any other situation which is used to explain why this is bad.

But to end this, what would the people here think of someone who went into the streets, totally nude? Think them insane? Think them rude? Think them as sexual objects? This shows the problem is not the person who is nude, nor the nude images, but the way the person reads into it. As Genesis begins, nudity is a purity as well. That which the Romans tried to do in shame can be seen as actually showing the purity of Jesus. This is how St Symeon the New Theologian explains his mentor, btw.

Dear Friends,

My own view is that Robert Lentz goes much too far in his artistic portrayals which are hardly "icons" in the canonical, ecclesial sense.

The depiction of the "horned god" is simply an attempt to adapt a largely unchristianized pagan cult that was also known in England as "herne the hunter" as I understand, that was popularized in the British series "Robin of Sherwood" in the eighties.

His "icon" of "Merlin the magician" is also of that same category.

To portray Christ in the form of a pagan god is simply contemptible, plain and simple.

As for portrayals of Christ, the fact remains that we do not portray Christ in icons as He would have, or we believe He would have, been in reality, two thousand years ago etc.

That is not what iconography is about.

The iconic portrayal of Christ is about depicting His Divinity as much as His Humanity and about doing this in a dignified manner that befits our Divine Lord and in keeping with the devotional sensitivities of the worshippers etc.

I find a lot of realistic Western religious art to be a total "turn-off" as a result, let alone when something like this comes around.

As for Monastery Icons, they are a gnostic group who have popularized pictures of many Western saints in recent years.

It is best to buy icons from reputable Catholic and Orthodox icon stores and to leave it at that.

Alex