www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News NEWSFLASH: A way to attract more seminarians?

Friends,

I have purposely placed this thread under "News," because it contains information that will come as a newsflash to most of you. This is a discussion that has to happen.

Here we go...

Not too long ago, I was speaking with a friend who is a Roman Catholic seminarian. He was asking me about the state of our seminary, and I reported the good news that we now have eight wonderful seminarians, and that our seminary is now accredited. The facutly and staff at our seminary are doing a fabulous job.

However, he was absolutely shocked to learn that our seminarians have to pay their own way through seminary, including room and board.

You see, in all of the Roman Catholic dioceses in this country, the diocese pays the full tuition for their seminarians. Furthermore, the diocese also takes care of their room and board, as well as their health insurance. Every Roman Catholic diocese also pays their seminarians a stipend, so that they have spending money and can afford the upkeep for a car. Many RC dioceses even take care of their car insurance.

In contrast, in the Ruthenian Church in this country, our seminarians have to pay everything themselves. I imagine that this could create a financial obstacle for many potential candidates.

Here are some questions that we need to ponder:

1) Is this financial situation an obstacle to many potential vocations?

2) Are our eparchies really unable to pay for our seminarians' educations? If not, then why aren't they doing so?

3) If our eparchies are unable to cover the cost, would it be possible to raise enough funds to begin doing this?

4) Would this be a worthwhile thing for our eparchies to pursue?

5) Do Orthodox dioceses typically pay for the education of their seminarians?

I am looking forward to your thoughts on this topic. I personally believe that this is something that we should seriously think about.

Anthony

This info about the RC seminarians is a newsflash to me! I didn't know they treated them that well!

This depends on the jurisdiction, diocese and seminary. Some do; many do not. Many just look at seminary as any other graduate level education. I have always been under the impression that most seminarians pay for their own education, with some possible help from their home parish or diocese. It seems to be a raw deal since, unlike medical school or law school, you won't come out to a job that makes lots of money. :rolleyes:

I did a quick look at some Orthodox seminary websites. St. Vladimir's lists the costs, and then has a seperate category for financial aid (scholarships, federal loans, etc). I didn't see costs on St. Tikhon's sites, but on their application they ask "How do you plan to finance your seminary education?" with check-boxes for various ways, none of which are "my diocese will flip the bill." Holy Cross states on their website under the Financial Aid heading, "All students are expected to contribute to their education. All financial aid awards are considered supplemental to the contribution of the family and the student." Holy Trinity in Jordanville doesn't explicitly state who pays for the education, but it implies that the student is responsible for the cost. I didn't see anything on the ACROGCD regarding Christ the Saviour.

Is this system of "pay your own way" what is found in Protestant seminaries?

Dave

I'm shocked myself by the information Antony provides. While I would not necessarily suggest that the eparchy should fund individual cars for seminarians, the basic cost of 8 years of education (most of which is not salable on the Outside) should certainly be the responsibility of the Church. Otherwise only the wealthy can become priests, which is not in the least a desirable state of affairs. At the moment most eparchies probably have more money than seminarians.
Incognitus

Try allowing married candidates to the priesthood. It seems to work for all of the other Greek Catholic churches.

Even if all of those eight stay, that is for the entire US, and will not counterract retirements and potential deaths which will likely ensue over the time of their formation.

Dear Friends:

Likewise, I'm equally shocked!

But not because of the same reason. Frankly, I thought all along that Eastern Catholic seminarians (and Orthodox seminarians) are financially supported by their respective dioceses/eparchies like we Latins do.

This is a revelation in itself!

Amado

Dear Friends,

It's much more cost-effective to attend RC seminary.

Alex

Alex,

I think you mean it's much more cost effective to be a RC attending a seminary.

But why does anyone think that an eparchy or diocese should foot the bill for the seminarian's cost of education? It's been about 20 years since I graduated from college but most students (or their families) paid for their own college education. I have a daughter who is a junior in high school and is looking at universities to attend. NOT ONE provides free tuition.

The practice of the Eparchy of Van Nuys is to provide "loans" to the seminarians for the cost of education. Upon ordination and subsequent parish assignment, or in the case of a seminarian's withdrawl, the loan becomes due, which is repaid over time. This is at least as generous as a student loan.

As to incognitus' comment about the wealthy, the same could be said about those attending a college or university, yet we know that is not true. As I understand, this has been the practice in the Metropolia of Pittsburgh for many decades (?), and I don't think the majority of the priests who attended Ss Cyril and Methodius during that time came from wealthy families.

Perhaps, we should be focusing on providing the priest with a just wage. The USCCB has called for employers to pay employees a "just wage", hmmm... What other vocation can a man chose after 8 years of university and graduate studies and earn a wage just above the poverty threshold which for 2003 was $8930.00 for a household of 1 person (figures from US Department of Health and Human Services)?

But in order to do this, we parishioners need to become better stewards over the finances God has given us and begin to tithe so that priests can earn a just wage. If we want priests to be available, we need to continually do our part by putting more than just a few dollars every week in the collection basket. IMO, the priest who serves the Church is worth more than the lawyer who charges $300.00 per hour. Yet if one factors all the hours the priest serves his parishioners, the priest would be lucky to earn minimum wage.

We want to attract married men to become priests, but how many married men with a family would choose a vocation that provides a living below the poverty threshold after spending 8 years in university and seminary?

Are there any organized fund-raising efforts going on to establish an endowment to support scholarships? Especially from wills? ISTM that it would be easy to raise this money. But people need to be asked.

Among the Protestants in the US, seminarians pay for the cost of their education though it may vary depending upon the denomination. In the Assemblies of God, I know that missionaries need to raise their own funds before they are allowed to go on the mission.

If you are interested, here are the facts about me:

I attend St Vladimir's Seminary as an Eastern Catholic. I get a scholarship each semester even though I am Eastern Catholic because they have a couple of generous endowments (but there is always need for further donations). The scholarship does not cover everything but does help out a lot; I'd say it covers about 1/2 of my total costs of room and board.

If I were an Antiochian Orthodox seminarian, they pay their total cost of the seminarian's tuition and all of the board if single and most of the board if married. These students have extra duties to complete like extra parish assignments, etc.

The OCA has differing policies by diocese--some help for some from the diocese, some receive no help. It all depends. Certainly this is to be lamented, but I don't think it really can be helped all that much.

All in all, I am able to live a comfortable life with my wife during our time in seminary but I will be faced with about $30,000 in debt (partly because I have taken the maximum amount for federal student loans out in order to pay for living expenses). That will not be too difficult to pay off but it will be a bit of a burden. Either way, since I am not sure I will serve the Church as a priest and since I will probably end up Orthodox, I feel it's fair for me to take care of my own funding at this stage.

If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to ask.

anastasios

I, for one, would be willing to subscribe to a fund to help support Parma seminarians.

Absolutely we need to pay up to support our priests, especially if they are going to support families.

This is a case where an examination of conscience on tithing is required--if you aren't giving 10% of your money back to God, why not?

Me too!
Ooh

Michael,
that terrible sinner

Father Deacon asks "But why does anyone think that an eparchy or diocese should foot the bill for the seminarian's cost of education?"
Because the seminarian must acquire a professional education, but will not be paid anything remotely resembling a professional salary. Expecting prospective clergy to embark willingly upon a life of sacrifice AND burden themself with a huge debt at the same time is so wildly unrealistic as to be unworthy of further comment.
Incognitus

This could easily be the biggest deterrent to vocations in the Metropolia, far outstripping any others.

Every prospective seminarian will have to address these financial concerns, usually discussing it with parents or spouse.

If it has not been the most obvious problem, lurking just below our collective radar screen it has probably been the most damaging.

Michael

All,

I found this topic to be very interesting. During my time of vocational discernment I came in contact with many Roman Catholic seminaries. Here is an example of two Catholic seminaries-financial aid policy; one diocesan and the other a religious order.

Divine Word Seminary, Epworth, Iowa [svd.org]

St. John Vianney Seminary, Miami, Florida [sjvcs.edu]

May God grant all of our Churches more faithful vocations.

God Bless,

ProCatholico

It depends. There's a simple issue of supply and demand at work. Thus, for example, students pursuing an MBA or MD will typically be footing the bill for their studies. Those pursuing a PhD in the sciences, however, get free tuition and a stipend of ~20k$/yr. In view of future earnings and lifestyle, there is an oversupply of students aiming for MBA's and MD's, and an undersupply of those aiming for PHD's; there is a societal need for, however, for all.

We have a need priests and should be removing any financial barriers or disincentives.

Costs of undergraduate education are a different matter, as they provide preparation for a variety of post-graduate oppotunities, which may or may not include, for example, the seminary. So it is not clear that costs of undergraduate education should be assumed. Maybe a loan program would work - with cancellation of debt after ordination.

More generally, the need for an educated workforce is great enough that while no universities provide free tuition, there is considerable attention to financial aid packages at all universities, and hefty tuition subsidies at state-related universitites and community colleges.

OK - my turn again

Obviously I cannot answer for all Dioceses in the UK.

Here in Scotland our RC seminarians are supported by their own Diocese.

I can speak with a degree of accuracy about one of our Seminarians in Rome. I have known him since he was 11 and entering Secondary School - he is now half way through his 5th Year .

When he went to Rome in year 1 he went out there in August for an intensive language course until the Gregorian Uni started their lectures in October. The Scottish students are expected to become profficient in Italian very quickly. He paid his own air fare to Rome and though board and lodging was provided in the Scots College he had to find his own spending money. His Grant from the Archdiocese came through in October.

This Grant is supposed to cover all his expenses - but books are expensive and though the students are very adept at finding cheap flights home - money is a problem. None of them have cars out there [ some of the home based one do I understand].

At Christmas the students come home for 2 weeks - by air of course. These flights are funded by themselves as are the summer ones. They are encouraged to have a break away from the college for a few days after the Exam Diets [ if their own timetable permits before the return to the Greg ] and during the Week after Easter Sunday. - but they are not permitted to return to the UK.These breaks will of course involve them in travel and board and lodging expense while they are away from the Scots College

They return to Scotland after the Summer Exams - anything from mid June to the end of June [ again depending on their own exam dates]

From July to the beginning of October they are at home. From the end of Second Year during this summer break they have a one month Parish placement - normally in August, though it rarely starts at the beginning. In September they have some courses in the Scottish Seminary as well as a few days with all Scottish Seminarians present - these 2 sessions in Scotus College are not necessarily end on. They are not permitted to have a vacation job. Whilst in Parish and at Scotus of course board and lodging are supplied by the Arch Diocese.

The course in Rome is one Academic year longer than the home based Course as in yrs 6 and 7 they follow a specialist course in which they will gain [ hopefully] a qualification to teach that course here in Scotland. Should their couse finish early and the Student - in year 7 is of course an Ordained Deacon then - they may return home after their final Exams - this I believe is happening to one Student at Easter this year so he will be at home from April until his Ordination to the Priesthood in June/July whenever it will be arranged - however he will not be able to have paid employment during this time as he is a Cleric , nor will he be having more than 1 months Parish Experience ,and will be living at home until his Priesthood Ordination.

Most of our students do have some debt when they finish their courses and will have Student loans to repay from the very small stipend they receive from the ArchDiocese.

Yes - they do realise that they are fortunate to be funded - but life is still not easy for them.

Gerald will specialising in Patristics next year - does anyone know where we can obtain all volumes of the Philokalia for him ? We are not having much success over here, in finding them

Anhelyna

A stipend of 20K per annum?! Where? My graduate assistantship pays half that! I think I need to change schools....

Jason

Stipends are probably fairly consistent from school to school, but vary considerably across disciplines. What are you studying?

Computer Science

Jason

Wildly unrealistic or not, that is reality in the Eparchy of Van Nuys. Perhaps, you need to reread my post. I know full well what priests are currently earning, that's why I advocated a just wage for the priests if they are to pay back the loan. But this goes back to us who put a sign of our faith (or the lack thereof) into the basket that passes before us on Sunday morning.

Dear Father Deacon,
Well, there is a popular saying about what you may expect to receive if you pay people peanuts.
Those who are interested in the Real World might do worse that to enquire about the pay-scales and benefits normally given to clergy of the Episcopal Church in the USA.
Meanwhile, it would be sensible for the Catholics to consider that what amounts to an ever-diminishing (counting in for inflation) remuneration for the clergy, together with increasing demands upon the clergy and plummeting respect for the clergy, create a situation in which it is less than altogether amazing that the number of recruits for the seminaries is less than overwhelming.
In case I sound unfriendly, let me add that a good deacon is worth his weight in gold!
Incognitus

I recently ran across this information...

"The Home Missions Appeal [of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops] directs 13% of its funding grants to the Eastern Catholic dioceses, which makes it the largest source of funding, from within the Latin Rite, of Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in the United States."

My question is what do these dioceses (eparchies) do with the money? How is it used? Can it be used in support of seminarians?

I'm surmizing that the money goes just to the dioceses and not individual parishes.

Curious as to which eparchies apply/take advantage of these grants and what they use the money for.

(... and who says the Romans don't do anything for us?)

CIX!

Gerald will specialising in Patristics next year - does anyone know where we can obtain all volumes of the Philokalia for him ? We are not having much success over here, in finding them
Anhelyna

Dear Anhelyna,

You may want to try Barnes and Noble (their website). I was at one of thier local stores, and saw a new printing of vols 2, 3, and 4.