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Henry,

"Yes, to you the words of the Pope are not substantial."

Your claim is riduculous on its face.

Dan L

Dan,

You told me nothing I said was substantial. I gave a reference to what the Pope has said on Islam. Therefore, the claim shows you said what you said either without reading what I posted, or you are trying to backtrack on what you said.

As for the first link, obviously you fail to ignore the condemnations given. The first statement is correct, don't judge Islam based upon its wayward followers, just like you should not judge Christianity on its. Then there is a quote about harming no one -- yes, that is very evil. I wonder what they were thinking.

Henry,

The charge of "ad hominem" is as they say, the last refuge of the scoundral. You claim to be a scholar of Islam. I am a scholar of Islam. You claim that I proclaim hate, yet I do not. I'm well aware of the evils of our own country. They are numerous to be sure. Ours is not a Christian country yet anyone can worship in anyway they choose without fear of organized and protected attacks against them.

"I have Christian friends who say "Christians lack character. It is a great religion, but Christians often lie and have no concern with ethics." You know, I too can "poison the well" with "ad hominems" like that if you want."

I'm reminded of Gandhi's assertion that the only thing wrong with Christianity are the Christians themselves. Quite true. Quite true. As I've said before I would not wish to live in the Holy Roman Empire, nor as a native American in the nineteenth century in this country, nor under the domination of Islam in any country.

Dan L

Dan

Ad hominen is a logical fallacy. The charge is valid, when you say "I know a Muslim who said Muslims have no character." And use this to say their teachings are wrong. That follows the definition of ad hominem.

You claim to be a scholar of Islam, but all I see is NO understanding of it from you. You claim to have taught comparative religion -- did you teach "how they are all wrong but us" kind of comparative religion? That seems to be your methodology.

So, it is ok for Christians to constantly not be right, and not follow their religion properly. It doesn't hurt them. But if Muslims do, it shows the religion is flawed? Can't you see your hypocracy? You are blinded by your hate, and an example of why the violance and hate continue to cycle around. What you say of Islam, they say of Christianity. For every tit they provide tat.

BTW, I have been to Egypt, and worked extensively with Kurds. I found them far more hospitable, and honorable, than the average American. And yes, some were Christian, some were Muslim. But their culture and response as the same for both.

Which goes back to another issue: so many people confuse the religion with the culture it is manifest in. Many of the things people think "is Islam" really is the old world culture. Christianity in post-Christian nations now reflect the post-Christian ethic. Christianity in that old culture acted the same. But that does not mean that was what Christianity was. Nor is it what Islam is.

Some helping reading in order to get some insight into Islam:

1. "Taking Back Islam; American Mujslims Reclaim Their Faith", edited by Michael Wolfe.

2. Bat Ye'or, "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam" and "Dhimmitude".

3. Scwartz, "The Two Faces of Islam"

This will get you started.

Henry,

I don't know you. Perhaps you are personally a fine person. You certainly don't know me. Your words are the words of a scoundral but they may not represent who you really are. If you wish to live under Islamic rule you are welcome to do so. If you want to claim objectivity in this matter there's not much I can do about it. Let the readers decide.

Dan L

Your readings on Islam, which are "look how bad Islam is" books remind me the kind of books I have seen, and continue to see, on Catholicism.

Jack Chick would be proud.

As I said, I have provided resources, and people have the means to read them if they want. You said you do not trust me, because I actually live out what the Pope has said, which is to stop this nonsense and hate against Islam. Misconceptions which help fuel the fire. Fine, do not trust me. But I will continue with the Pope.

Now I know you are a nut and not to be trusted. The first book is a collection of essays by Islamic scholars most of whom are Muslim and all of whom are sympathetic, including Karen Armstrong. Schwartz is a Sufi. I only know the Bat Ye'or is from the Middle East but now lives in France.

You are a wild and crazy guy who cannot be taken seriously.

Dan L

I will let the moderator do as he wills with this -- but your continual attack on me -- I think people will note.

Yes, "Two Faces of Islam" is written by a Sufi. It is also an attack on Saudi Arabian policies. We can go into details about the _context_ of the criticism. Something you still do not seem to catch up on. And, to go a bit further, it still follows the general agenda I pointed out you want to address -- which is to deal with POLITICS.

I am still waiting some indication you understand _Islam_ as Islam. Its teachings, traditions, internal debates, divisions, etc. I have seen an interest in politics. Why?

If the Sufis ran a country it would probably be a tolerable place to live. Sadly, I know of no such country.

Dan Lauffer

//Yahweh of Israel is not Trinity, therefore Judaism and Christianity do not share the same God?

We must not confuse notions of God and those errors (which Jews also have) with which God is being worshiped (Jews do worship the same God, and Muslims do too, which the Catholic Church consistently says).//

I'm not so convinced that the Muslims worship the same God as we do. But, I do think the Jews worship the triune God. They just dont know it as we do. Take for instance the part in Torah Genesis 1:26 which states"..Let Us make man in Our Image and after Our likeness." US,OUR meaning more than one. The angels could not create so who is the US and OUR? Torah Exodus 14:24 At the morning watch, the Lord looked down upon the Egyptian army from a pillar of fire and cloud, and threw the Egyptian army into panic. (The Holy Spirit), burning bush (The Word) during the Exodus just to name few? IMHO, Here we have all the three Persons in the Trinity but are somehow ignored by the Jews. God the Father could not be seen by the human eye since he is fallen. God manifested Himself through His Son and Holy Spirit. The Torah has elements or evidence of more that one personage in God But the Quran DOES NOT. THAT to me is the big difference to me.

JoeS

Joe

As I said before, and I will say it again. The Jews do not know Yahweh as Trinity. But they do worship the same God we worship. That means one can worship God without knowing all the revelation about the Trinity.

I am not going to debate the verses you offered. They can be used to help support Trinitarian Theology, and reading into them through Christian eyes they certainly do. The Jews as you know and I know, do not. And there are many other ways one can read them, including the early Jewish Henotheism for example.

But once you can accept "do not know all there is about God" allows one to still worship _God_ and the same God we worship (and St Paul also gives this to the pagans on Mars Hills), then we can begin to see that Islam also worships the same God in ignorance. You also suggested that the Trinity could not be found in the Koran, although it is interesting that many great Christian scholars in the early Christian-Islamic debates actually pointed out Islamic theology which allows for Trinitarian theology. We can begin with the discussions about the _many names_ of God. It was used by Christians to point out as you just pointed out with the Torah.

So just becase you do not see the Trinity in the Koran, does not mean one cannot find it. Just like the way Jews cannot see the Trinity in the Torah does not mean we as Christians cannot see it.

And last but not least, we have the statements of the Catholic Church which continue to express that Judaism, Christianity and Islam do share the same God. We are brother religions. And like brothers, we tend to fight dirty with each other.

Henry- thank you for your balanced and informative posts; I got into a protracted argument about this same topic a few weeks back and ultimately found it disheartening... If one follows the arguments stated against Muslims worshiping the One God [arguments contrary to Catholic teaching] to their logical conclusions we would have to hold that the Jews are also worshiping a false god, as he is not recognized as Triune, or that Calvinists are worshiping a false god as he is not recognized as merciful and so on. And then they put words into the mouths of those of us who hold what the Church teaches, accusing us of doubting the Trinity or holding that Islam is the True Faith; boy, I tell ya...
And dear Alice, if you are still there please note that I did not get "upset" by your "opinions". I merely was correcting your omission of an important historical fact, that the massacres on Chios were preceeded by the slaughter of innocent Muslims - men, women, children- by Greek Christians in the year preceeding the atrocities on Chios.
And Dan- can you try to be less abrasive and personal and stick to the argument at hand? Name calling on the forum, or making accusations questioning the good will of others is not appropriate...

Lover of Icons,

Send your note to Henry your comments have nothing to do with me. The charge of "ad hominem" is usually the last refuge of a scoundral. Please don't get yourself associated with scoundrals.

Dan L

"As for the massacre of Chios, it was in 1822, and in 1821, the revolution for Greek independence started. The massacre was the reaction of the Sultan to his formerly beloved island of Chios for joining in the fight for independence. Innocent women and children surely had no part in the fight for independence did they?" -From my previous post to Iconophile which he may not have seen.

Dearest Iconophile/Daniel,

In response to your most recent post:

Attempts at revolutions, especially ones where your oppressors made you go underground to learn your language and preserve your religion, (that is where the controversial 'ethnarc' role of Greek Orthodox priests in North America has evolved from) are not usually opportunities for the oppressed to be polite. On the mainland, there were indeed, as you note, incidents of Greeks also committing atrocities on Turks.

Infact, if you go to the thread about Holy Communion, Gaudior recently wrote where the Greek Orthodox custom of communing rarely (4 times a year) came from: Turkokratia, or Ottoman rule, because Orthodox Christians were SCARED. There was, in my opinion, infinitely MORE reason for the Christian Hellenes to want independance from the Muslim Turks than the Americans from the British.

Despite what may have been happening in the struggle (and yes, war IS ugly) for independence on the mainland, that still did NOT mandate the hell bent MASSACRE of 2/3 of the island of Chios' population, hiding in monasteries, in churches, in wells, and in mountainous villages.

Infact, Chios did not gain its independence from Ottoman rule for another ONE HUNDRED years after the mainland.

It is by the grace of God, and much prayer, and ultimately courage, that a Christian nation like Greece actually got loose from Islamic rule.

Please, please, just as I would not get into the histories of Ukraine here with brethren of Ukrainian background just from what I might read and consequently want to conclude, PLEASE do NOT continue telling me what MY family's island's history is...I have spent about thirty summers on that island and KNOW the history intimately. I have smelled its history, heard its history, explored its history, researched its history, and seen its history. My husband and son have even translated into English some of its history from the Monastery of St. Menas (a request from the Mother Superior because it was the site of one of the largest tragedies of that massacre) into a book called 'St. Menas'...a book about the saint, the monastery, and its history.

To tell one about something one is intimately knowledgeable about is pressumptious to say the least.

Has it become SO politically incorrect to utter a word against Islam here?

In Christ,
Alice

Although this thread maybe morphing into something unintended I must ask the question: If the Muslims are our spiritual brothers why did God sent his only begotten Son to redeem ALL mankind not just the un-Muslim? Did God goof up and maybe make a mistake in the Incarnation and maybe Islam is the true religion? I believe the Muslims think so. Why even have a Christian religion at all. The implication is that all you need is a belief in a one God as Islam does? I guess Im having trouble understanding why if Christ came for our salvation through His Resurection why are we accepting the Islamic religion as a brother religion when they dont believe in Christ as God. Im more apt to excuse the Jews for their misbelief because they were the chosen prior to Christianity. The Islamic religion is a post-Christian religion. They claim connection with Ishmael first son of Abraham. But there is no continuity from Abraham to Muhammed like our Apostolic succession. If there was then I could accept this brother thing. The Arabs at the time prior to Islam were Christian or maybe something else but they certainly werent Muslim as far as beliefs. The Christians have a direct link from Present day all the way back to Abraham. I dont think we can place Islam in the same category as the Jews. It just dosnt make sense to me, but what do I know.

JoeS