www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greek-Catholics or Byzantine Catholics ?

which is more proper ? or are both acceptable ?

In "Starij Kraj", it's Greek Catholic. In America (Ruthenian Metropolia) it is Byzantine Catholic. It all depends on which side of the Atlantic you are on!

Ungcsertezs

ah ! I see !

Well Ruthenians and Ukranians are Byzantines, while the Melkites are Greek Catholic. Here is an interesting paper on it. http://www.acorn.net/stjomelk/chnames.htm

Rose,

Not sure how you came by that distinction. The Ruthenians and Ukrainians, like the other East Europeans, are Byzantines of the Slav Tradition within the Rite. The Melkites, like the Greeks and Italo-Greico-Albanians, are Byzantines of the Greek Tradition within the Rite.

Many years,

Neil

Sorry for the confusion Neil. Yes they are all Byzantine, I find it interesting also that they choose to use a different term. I read an article and amazingly enough, I just found it again, on how it all came to be...

In the mountainous region of Carpatho-Rus, known also as Carpatho-Ruthenia, situated between present day Slovakia and Ukraine, there is a group of Eastern Christians. Evangelized in the ninth century by those equals-to-the-apostles, Saints Cyril and Methodius, this group received the Holy Gospel and Sacred Mysteries (Sacraments) from the Byzantine Church of Constantinople. Although Cyril and his brother, Methodius, were Greek (from Thessalonika), they promoted the use of the ancient Slavonic language in worship. This language, later known as Old Church Slavonic, would become the liturgical language of the Carpatho-Rusyns and all Slavonic Christians, both Orthodox and Catholic. In time, Cyril and Methodius brought their liturgical books to Rome to receive the blessings of Pope Hadrian, and he in turn blessed their mission of establishing the Greek (Byzantine) Catholic religion in the Carpathian mountains of Central Europe.

Over time, a rift grew between East and West; and, in 1054, estrangement was realized with the Great Schism of Constantinople and Rome. Being an Eastern Church, the Carpatho-Rusyns were eventually drawn into by this unfortunate break and became members of the Orthodox Church. This ecclesia sui iuris (self-governing church) of Mukachevo-Uzhorod in time sought reunion with the Church of Rome, re-establishing its Catholic faith while maintaining the spirituality, ceremonies, and discipline of the Eastern Church. On April 24, 1646, in Saint George Castle Garden in Uzhorod, a number of priests and faithful proclaimed vocally their reunion with the Catholic Church, re-establishing the unity that Christ so ardently prayed for. From this nucleus would grow a reborn church which the Empress Maria Theresa of Austro-Hungary would later call "The Greek Catholic Church" -- "Greek" in its ritual, theology and art; "Catholic" in union with the Bishop of Rome.....

As the decades of the twentieth century progressed, missionary efforts led to the establishment of parishes in California, Florida and even in Alaska. The term "Greek Catholic" would change to "Byzantine Catholic," stressing that the church was not Hellenic (Greek) in nationality, and that the spirituality and liturgical services were of the Byzantine Rite; also, English, now the vernacular, became the dominant liturgical language.
http://www.dreamwater.org/edu/passaic/history.htm

So it expalined to me, a convert and one who is Ruthenian in a Melkite parish, though they use the same liturgy why the Melkites used the Greek Catholic, while the Ruthenians used Byzantine. Thought it was interesting, doesn't mean that they are not one in the same, I too had always wondered why the difference.

Pani Rose

Hey, I hope to meet a lot of the Melkites down here in Alabama at the Melkite Convention 2006.

Pani Rose,

That account you posted from the Passaic website is extremely biased. It really should be revised.

Admin

"Greek-Catholic" is the traditional name for every Local Church which shares two characteristics: a) the use of the liturgical tradition developed in Constantinople, and b) the maintenance of ecclesiastical Communion with the Western Church. Since this is our common name and unites us all, it should enjoy pride of place.

The Empress Maria Theresa extended the use of this term to the Greek-Catholics within what was then the Austrian Empire and became Austria-Hungary in the late nineteenth century. But the term first came into use in the early seventeenth century, when the Patriarchate of Antioch elected Patriarch Cyril VI, who openly accepted and professed ecclesiastical communion with Rome.

The name "Greek Catholic" was used without any paticularly difficulty in the USA until all the litigation over parishes decamping for Eastern Orthodoxy in reaction to some of the more egregious stupidity and worse which confronted them from those who should have supported them. In an unrelated development, the Anglo-Catholics of the Oxford Movement had succeeded in causing the Oxford English Dictionary to define "Greek Catholic" as meaning "of or related to the Eastern Orthodox Church" - this inaccurate definition was planted by people who knew nothing and cared less about the realities of both Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

The result was that "Greek Catholic" became ambiguous in the eyes of American jurisprudence. Hence the new term "Byzantine Catholic", which seemed safer.

The trouble arose, however, because this term became divisive, especially as ethnic battles became more bitter, and people genuinely did not want to feel their community with other Churches sharing the two characteristics I mentioned above.

Incognitus

ok thanks everyone. and how about liturgical calenders. i know for the most part all the byzantine share the same feasts, even the ancient church saints, but what about newly cannonized byzantine saints, are all byzantine churches supposed to add them to the calender, same question applies to the eastern orthodox churches as well, how do they do it? for example, if the will of God was to allow the cannonization of Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky, would the Melkites add him as well ?

I can not even speak for the Eastern Catholics, but from my understanding in the Orthodox Church, when an autocephalous church recognizes a saint, that church sends out a synodal letter to all the other autocephalous churches. It is then up to each autocephalous church to decide whether to add that saint to its calendar.

I will give you an example. Last year I was traveling through Belarus and Poland. A priest from the Metropolitan of Warsaw's staff took me around Warsaw's churches. In one church they had the relics and icon of a saint. When I questioned the priest about him, I was told that the priest was from America, and had returned to Poland after independence. I was also told some of his life. When I returned to the states, I asked several clergy about this saint, and even showed them the icon print. No one knew anything about him. Also I have not seen any veneration on this side of the Atlantic of the martyrs or saints of Bylestok (Poland).

So you can see that additions to the liturgical calendar are subjective. I also know that in Greece, and number of saints are venerated in a Metropolis, but not by the entire church.

I hope this helps a little.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Thanks for clearing up my understanding. I never looked at it as biased, I just thought it was interesting. But then I guess that is the dumb part of me, I still don't see what was biased in the atricle - although I tend to be dumb about a lot of things - I just thought it was expaing how the names came into use. I guess, in reality I don't get into all the political stuff. Besides that, as a convert, I am just happy to be in the Eastern Church. Sorry if I have given out the wrong info, from now on I will be more careful on a subject, or better yet not post. Thanks!

Pani Rose

OK, so what's the bias? Explain, please.

Dear Pani Rose:

Don't be dejected!

For, after all, it has been asked and answered: "What's in a name? A Rose is as sweet (and beautiful) by any other name!"

Amado

Dear Friends,

To paraphrase Augustine, "Late have I come to this thread!"

The term "Byzantine" is largely rejected by Ukrainian Catholics on this side of the Atlantic - if not officially, then at the parish level.

To use that term, as one UGCC parish here does, is to immediately send out the signal that one is:

a) using English liturgies

b) is getting assimilated into the English cultural mainstream and is less "Ukrainian" as a result.

c) Hell-bent on dissociating their church from its cultural context with respect to "Ukrainian"

d) emphasizing the importance of Rite over identification with the Mother Church in Ukraine

e) Generally to be shunned by those who know better . . .

The term "Greek-Catholic" is used in Ukraine today to differentiate from the Ukrainian Roman-Catholic church there (as I understand it).

The Ukrainian Churches here tended to discard the "Greek" in their names because of a perceived cultural identification with modern Greece.

There were Orthodox missionaries among the Ukrainian Catholics way back when who used to say, "Stop being Greeks and stop being Catholics!" (where "Catholic" meant "Pole").

There was an article written by one of our priests some time ago that made the argument that the Ukrainian Catholic Church is not "Byzantine" or "Byzantine-Ukrainian" (Patriarch Josef Slipyj's title for his Church).

Instead, it should be called "Kyivan"/"Kievan."

He argued that the original Constantinopolitan Rite was sufficiently "Ruthenicized" by the Kyivan Church over time to make it a "Kyivan Rite."

And, he argued, it didn't make sense to refer to a country to describe a Rite since Rites usually took their names from cities i.e. Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Kyiv.

I personally agree with this argument and would prefer a greater focus on the Kyivan Church in determining our Church's title - which is an ongoing debate with us.

Alex

Bless, Father Anthony,

If memory serves me correctly, the Metropolitan of the Polish Orthodox Church is an ethnic Ukrainian and he glorified those Ukrainian Orthodox saints and martyrs (of the Kholm region) locally.

I wrote an article about them in "Ukrainian Orthodoxy."

Your point is most valid! There is a Roman Catholic knight of Malta who was martyred by the Turks on Rhodes who is honoured as a Saint by the local Orthodox there, even though he was a Latin.

His cult is unknown in the Latin Church!

Alex