www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greek-Catholics or Byzantine Catholics ?

A. I prefer English liturgies because I am not Ukrainian.

B. I am in the English cultural mainstream because it is my heritage.

C. I don't have to disassociate myself from any Ukrainian context because I was never Ukrainian.

D. What Mother Church in Ukraine? My ancestors came from Austria, although they have been most assuredly dead for at least a century and a half.

Byzantine and proud of it! :p

"Did Your Baba Come from Austria?"
by Orysia Tracz

"Did your mother come from Ireland?" asks the Irish-American song. I have another, more relevant question. If you are of Ukrainian descent, and your grandparents or great-grandparents came from Ukraine to Canada [and the U.S.] in the last part of the 19th century or early part of this century, did your baba or dido come from Austria?

What a silly question, you may think. But is it? Almost every day, in the obituaries of the Winnipeg newspapers, we read about a 70- or 90-year-old individual, with a Ukrainian name, member of a Ukrainian church and Ukrainian organizations, and yet, "born in selo [village] such-and-such, pvit such-and-such, Austria." Why? That baba and dido most probably never even saw Austria. When they lived in Ukraine, they would have had to travel completely through Poland, Czechoslovakia, or Hungary to get to the borders of Austria itself. So how could they have been born in selo Dolyna, povit Zelenyi, AUSTRIA? They weren't. Your baba and dido were still Ukrainian, but everything around them was changing every so many years. The western portion of Ukraine was under the rule of the Austro-Hungarian Empire from 1722 to 1918, and under Polish rule within that empire, and later, for a good portion of that time.

The pioneers and later immigrants to Canada arrived with documents and papers in German, Polish, Rumanian, or Russian, because the language used on the documents was the official language of whatever government was ruling Ukraine at the time. From this, some descendants of these immigrants -- and even the immigrants themselves -- thought that because the papers were in German issued by "Austria," they were "Austrian" themselves. How many of our pioneers and their descendants were and are active members of the Polish and Rumanian communities because they thought they belonged there?

It's a long story, and yet it's simple. Ukraine is a very poor rich country -- rich in location, climate, soil, natural resources, and people, to overabundance. But because of these riches, throughout her history, Ukraine has been at the mercy of its greedy neighbours. When one consideres how long the Ukrainian people have existed as an entity, the years of independence [before 1991] were very few indeed.

National identity/ethnic origin and citizenship are two totally different things. Even in this century, your parents or grandparents, while being Ukrainian by nationality or ethnic origin, could have been citizens of Russia, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Austria, or Germany. This does not mean that they changed nationality, if by "nationality" you understand ethnic origin or national identity. They just changed citizenship. Remnants of colonialism and foreign occupations are evident in the Ukrainian language. "Za Avstriyi" and "za Pol'shchi" mean during [the time of] Austria and during [the time of] Poland -- i.e., under the rule of Austria and Poland. "Za nimtsiv" or "za Rossiyi" means during the wartime occupations of the Germans, and of the Russians. Also used was "za bol'shevykiv" -- during [the time of] the Bolsheviks.

The colonists and occupiers came, stayed, and left. The people, and the land, stayed the same -- Ukrainian -- as they had always been. I remember an old wise woman commenting on this topic, patiently explaining again and again: "Just because a kitten is born in the barn, that doesn't make it a calf."

My ancestors came from Austria, my last name is German, and my ancestors probably never saw any part of Ukraine - unless Ukraine conquered and ruled Vienna at some point. I suspect there are plenty of non-Ukrainian Eastern Catholics.

So many people don't know what they don't know.
Ever hear of Byzantine pyrohy? LOL

And some believe we all secretly wish to be Ukrainian. The Ukrainians are fine people, but all Eastern Catholics are not Ukrainians. I know what pyrohy is, but have never seen it in my life.

And not all Byzantine Catholics are Ruthenian.
The term Ruthenian is an ancient term used to describe the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe or what today is much of Ukraine.
Please don't take my comments the wrong way - it's just that I've run into a good number of people who have identified their ancestry as Austrian when in fact their ancestors were born in Ukraine when the Austro-Hungarian "Empire" occupied Ukraine.
God be with you!

There is another way of looking at the situation as it was in Eastern Europe around 1900. Certainly one could view oneself as "an ethnic Ukrainian and a citizen of Austria" if one had been born in Galicia and lived in Lemberg. But with that identity, one would be quite within one's rights to say "yes" if asked "are you an Austrian?".

By the same token, children of diaspora Ukrainians (or diaspora Romanians or diaspora Russians et alii) do not automatically lose the ethnic identity of their ancestral nation but do take on the national identity of the country of which they are citizens by birth - most Poles in the USA are Americans, and are prepared to assert that firmly if challenged.

Vivat Imperator et Rex Apostolicus!

Now, back to the discussion of Viennese pastry!

Incognitus

Would love some Viennese pastry and let's also have at least a few slices of those world famous Ukrainian tortes.
Yummy!
Smachnoho!
Bon Appetit!

I am a dedicated internationalist when it comes to chocolate and pastry.

m, this stuff is complicated. now I know where the expression "byzantine" came from to describe all this complicated intricacy.
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear Charles,

Yes, my eparchy is VERY Ukrainian!

But a number of our parishes have English liturgies for our parishioners who prefer them in English and also for our "RFTLC" (Refugees From The Latin Church ).

Our Patriarch has himself recommended more English liturgies and even more English language parishes.

But in my parish (that was featured in the movie, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"), "English" is something that happens "out there."

"Austrian" is something that many Ukies have on their birth certificates and also other countries as Ukraine was under the Habsburgs etc.

I'm a proud Canadian!

Alex

Herr Doktor Roman:

Згідні, єдні в сьпільні справі
ціль най буде всім одна:
Щасть Цісарю, щасть держави
В вік повстоїть Австрія!

Incognitus

Dear Friends,

Fr. Andriy Chirovsky, S.Th.D. founded the Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky Institute of Eastern Christian Studies in 1986. Fr. Chirovsky presented an article covering some of the history and the theology of the Church name a few years ago.

Quote

What's in a Name?
Issue 03-01
by Rev. Andriy Chirovsky

There has been a lot of recent talk about our Church name. Is it Ukrainian Catholic, Greek or Greco-Catholic? Should it be the Byzantine-Ukrainian Catholic Church? It does matter because a name indicates one's identity. When our forebears came to America they called themselves Rusyn or Ruthenian Greco-Catholics. I say Greco- rather than Greek in this context because they used Hreko-Katolyky (Greco-Catholics), not Hrets'ki Katolyky (Greek-Catholics). After a while, our people tired of being asked whether they liked souvlaki, so they dropped the Greek reference.

Quote

To disassociate themselves from ethnic Greeks, the Transcarpathian people chose, ever more frequently, to use the term "Byzantine," that referred to a liturgical tradition. So, (Galician) Ruthenian Greco-Catholics became "Ukrainian Catholics", while those from Transcarpathia became "Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics". In time many dropped the name Ruthenian, and called themselves "Byzantine Catholics." With their own Metropolia in the United States, they became the first self-governing Eastern Catholic Church in the Western Hemisphere.

Quote

...the general acceptance of the "Ukrainian Catholic" name seemed to be a triumph to many members of this long suffering nation and Church. At last, many thought, this is a guarantee the Ukrainian people will not be wiped from the face of the earth. With the staggering loss of more than 20 million Ukrainian lives from unnatural causes in the 20th century due to wars, persecutions, and man-made famine, it was not an unfounded fear though more trust in God would have been desirable.

When the Church in Ukraine emerged from the underground and sought to re-establish ownership to thousands of church properties confiscated by Stalin and given to the Moscow Patriarchate or converted to secular uses, it had to revert to the Greco-Catholic name, since that was its name on the old real estate deeds.

Quote

Our bishops, meanwhile, began thinking about our Church's name. From a theological viewpoint, calling it Ukrainian was not correct, for it implicitly excluded anyone not ethnically Ukrainian. A Church for just one ethnic group cannot be a Christian Church. Jesus commanded us: "Go and make disciples of all nations..." We would not be good Christians if we closed our doors to non-Ukrainians. The only legitimate way to keep our ancient Christian identity and the treasures of our religious tradition, was to do so in a way that shared the riches of the faith. We are a Church that came from the Ukrainian people, but a Church that is open to all people, no matter their ethnicity.

Quote

Just as we do not refer to the Italian Church, but rather to the Church of Rome, or to the Church of Constantinople vs. the Turkish Church; just as the Patriarchate of Moscow is the correct name for the Orthodox Church in Russia, so we are the Church of Kyiv, in full, visible communion with Rome and Western Catholics.

That we are the Church of Kyiv is clear. It was the Metropolitan of Kyiv and the bishops of the Kyivan Metropolia that re-established communion with Rome in 1596. The more difficult part is how to express the rest of our identity for that part of the Church of Kyiv now in full, visible communion with the Church of Rome. Various alternatives have been examined: The Kyivan Catholic Church, The Kyivan Church of the Catholic Communion, The Kyivan Ecumenical (in Ukrainian: "Vselens'ka") Church, The Orthodox-Catholic Church of Kyiv, to name but a few.

One thing is certain. We cannot go on officially calling ourselves the Ukrainian Church, because that is heretical. We must embrace the entire Christian heritage established under the rule of St. Volodymyr ...

The martyr Church of Kyiv is from the Ukrainian people, but it also serves all who seriously embrace this Church's Holy Tradition and want to live out that Tradition, whether in Ukraine or any other land on God's earth.

For the full text see:

http://www.ucns-holyfamily.org/newslttr.html

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

COOL!

Sounds confusing but it makes sence

Dear John,

Actually, Fr. Chirovsky's article expresses his viewpoint, most of which many of us Ukies would agree with.

However, his idea that to say "Ukrainian Catholic" is somehow "heretical" is really over the top and something that is quite strange coming from a Ukrainian theologian of his stature.

Also, I think he would really feel the "heat" from our people - happily, for his sake, there aren't too many of our people who read such ecclesiological musings coming out of the institutions that they generously support.

I think he is confusing things when he compares "Ukrainian Catholic" with "Italian Catholic."

The former refers to a Particular Church of the East and the latter to an ethnocultural expression of the large, international Latin Church.

Can he point to any EC Particular Church today that is focused on a specific nation? Is the Russian Church heretical for calling itself "Russian?"

In fact, "Russian" refers not only to a particular culture but to the way in which that culture has influenced the development of the Byzantine Church among the East Slavs.

While "Ukrainian" can and does refer to the people of Ukraine, it refers, primarily, to that same development in Ukraine with Kyiv as its ecclesial centre.

The New Martyrs Fr. Professor refers to did not die for the "Kyivan Church." They died for the Greek-Catholic Church and, in many cases, for the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church that they were intimately connected with. The term "Kyivan Church" simply has no historical basis with GC's since the Unia of Brest.

"Ukrainian" has come to have a national(ist) context and that is part of the ongoing development of political history.

"Kyiv" is hardly the international ecclesial centre today that it once was. Belarusyans desire their own Particular Church.

Even Moscow doesn't understand why its former ecclesial vassals want "out."

In the context of North America, there is no reason why the Ukrainian Catholic Church cannot have outreach to the cultural mainstream - and I think this is what Fr. Chirovsky is concerned about.

There is a tension in our church between seeing it as being connected ONLY to Ukrainian national identity and seeing that "Ukrainian Church" can refer to a Ukrainian ecclesial identity that has little to do with ethnocultural identity.

When it comes to doing analyses involving cultural history and sociology, I frankly find that the Sheptytksy Institute falls short and even flat.

But I will give it one thing - for anyone to say that the term "Ukrainian Catholic" is heretical - now that takes gumption!

That our people haven't thrown tomatoes all over the Institute before now probably means that they don't read its publications!

The very idea of going into one of our parishes here and saying that sends shivers up and down my spine!

Also, I think it is time our theologians stop pretending that they can learn nothing from the insights of the social sciences - as I believe this article, in certain places, demonstrates.

This has been an ongoing problem for quite some time, in my view.

Alex