www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Maronite Liturgy

Mor,

Be sure to pick a good Maronite church to go to; I've heard that some are very latinized but that others are very true to the Maronite traditions.

Also, I failed to find a website for an Indian Orthodox church in Atlanta. Are you certain there is one in Atlanta? Thanks.

ChristTeen287

Dear CT287,

There is only one Maronite church in the area. Mapquest says it's thirteen miles and seventeen minutes away from me, but I don't trust those things anymore. I don't know if it's "traditional" or "latinised". I seriously hope it's not the latter, although I'll keep an open mind. The only reason I'm going is, again, because it's Advent, and I don't like missing any of those Sundays because, in my opinion, the Sundays of Advent in the Syrian calendar are by far the best preparation for Christmas, better than at least the Latins' and the Byzantines' preparation (based on reading and experience).

The Orthodox church in Atlanta may not have a website, but I have relatives who have relatives in Atlanta, and I hear it is there. Call up information and ask for listings for "Indian Orthodox", "Malankara Orthodox", or even "Syrian Orthodox", "Malankara Jacobite", or something like that...I think it should be one of the first two, but I am not positive as to whether or not this is a patriarchal parish.

Thanks, Mor.

ChristTeen287

Phil,

Indeed, this is the Maronite calendar's Season of Joyous Announcement and I concur fully this season of preparation is superior to the Byzantine's. I also like the celebrating of the Feast of the Annunciation in preparation of Nativity as opposed to having it in Lent where its celebration is muted. The Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites also place the Annunciation in Advent.

In Christ,
Lance

I'd like to see the Ambrosian and Mozarabic liturgies firsthand, but I'd have to go to Spain and Milan for those.

ChristTeen287

Well, I didn't get to go to the Maronite Liturgy this past Sunday like I hoped. Left the dorms at nine, "Mass" (that's what the answering machine said it was, anyway...I was kinda hoping for good old Qurbono) was at ten. I got to the right neighbourhood within ten minutes, but after circling around the neighbourhood and town for an hour, I realised that it wasn't where it should've been. So if anyone knows the true whereabouts of Saint Ann's Maronite Church in Troy, NY, please let me know.

Anyway, I was hoping I could write this with some firsthand knowledge, but since that's not available, I'm just gonna go on all the information from this thread, and compare the Maronite liturgy with that of the Syrians and Indians. Having read it all, I feel safe in saying that, while I think I could get along just fine in any Indian or Syriac Orthodox or Catholic parish, I think I might be lost or at least "dazed" in a Maronite parish. There are similarities from what I can tell, but it also seems quite different.

In the outline Yuhannon provided, the structure for the "new" Qurbono *seems* to me to be an equal mixture of Latin, Byzantine, and Syrian elements, as well as a mix of different services (part of the Liturgy seems to be what in our Churches correspond to Matins and the Preparatory Orders of Melchizedek and Aaron).

Preparation of the Offerings

Today this rite is merely a routine act, without any liturgical meaning.

That need not be the case. The Orders of Melchizedek and Aaron, still preserved in Indian and Syrian Churches, are meaningful and very moving, even granting that the people are, for the most part, not a part of this private liturgical rite. They can be found here: http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/Prep.html

The lighting of the candles in the altar is done in Indian and Syrian churches by the priest, and I see it is the same in Maronite churches (I assume it is the priest who is doing this). But I wonder what the purpose of an entrance procession is. The priest has already been in the altar to prepare the gifts (although the article says this is done by deacons or lessesr ministers) and/or light the candles and/or vest. Why go out only to process in? Seems kinda odd, but I guess that's just me not being used to it.

The "Order of the Services" (with the Hoosoyo, Proemion, Sedro, etc.) is what I said looked like elements from two services. The Angelic Hymn and the doxology belong to the Divine Office, and are not proper to the Liturgy. In Indian and Syrian churches, where Midnight, Matins, Terce, and Sext are sung before Liturgy, these are already incorporated. I do not know if these services are sung before the Maronite Liturgy in the average parish. But it seems awkward to take them out of the Office and incorporate them here. The Hoosoyo, Proemion, Sedro, etc. are a part of the Liturgy, but are all sung after the reading of the Gospel, and not before all of the readings, as seen here. It seems that in this aspect, the Maronite Liturgy may be borrowing a bit of structure from the Byzantine rite, in which (if I'm not mistaken), most of the proper hymns for the day or feast (troparion, kontakion, etc.) are sung before the readings as well.

When the celebrant is alone for the Qurbono, he himself burns the incense, incenses, and recites the hoosoyo. He may delegate somebody to sing it with a good voice and pleasant melody; however, he should reserve for himself the conclusion of both the proemion and the sedro.

I don't think anyone but a priest or above can be delegated to sing the Hoosoyo, Proemion, and Sedro during the Holy Qurbono in Indian and Syrian churches. I've seen acolytes and deacons delegated to sing them in other services, with the priest concluding, but this has never been done as far as I know during the Liturgy itself.

With regard to the Trisagion, we all share that in common, although I've never heard of the final phrase changing according to the liturgical season. The only thing I've ever seen is the Trisagion being substituted for on Holy Thursday (and maybe Holy Saturday too? I don't remember) with something else.

I'll say here (since they mention that the Trisagion is taken in Syriac) that I like how the Maronites guarantee that some Syriac will always be used in the Liturgy by mandating certain parts be taken only in Syriac. My priest uses a good amount of Syriac (not for any of the parts the Maronites have mandated it for, unfortunately), but you can go to Indian churches and not hear one bit of Syriac, and I think that's a real shame.

I feel bad that the Scripture readings have been limited to two. Our Liturgy has three NT readings during the Liturgy (Acts or Catholic Epistle, Pauline Epistle, Gospel), and a number of OT readings during the Office sung before Liturgy.

There are some things proper to the Maronites which, to my knowledge, no Indian or Syrian parish practices. The prayer after the Trisagion and the psalm of the readings seem to be proper to the Maronites, while I am not sure why the Korozooto is added after the Gospel (I don't know where it fits in our services, but probably not in the Liturgy). I'd be interested in hearing more about these.

Regarding the beginnings of the Anaphora, because we don't assign a separate place for the "service" and the readings, there is no "access" to the altar. The priest has already been standing at the altar.

I don't understand just what the "requirements of today's pastoral life" are (and the "better understanding") that would require Liturgy facing the people as an allowable option. This is something that just isn't done in Indian and Syrian churches. The altar table itself has "steps" on top for the Cross and the twelve candles, as well as flowers and things like that...facing the people would not be an option, even with an altar away from the wall. I haven't seen anyone -- Latin or Maronite -- ever come out with an explanation as to the positive aspects of such celebration. At least with the Latins, one could say it was theoretically a part of their liturgical tradition even before Vatican II, even if it wasn't always done. But can the Maronites say the same thing? I would've thought that, on this score, they would be more like their Syrian brethren.

There is no transferral or presentation of the gifts in Indian and Syrian Liturgies. The gifts are prepared and "presented" during the prothesis. That the incensation of the altar occurs only at this juncture, and not at the beginning of the Liturgy (with the singing of the antiphon of Mor Severios), is another thing that has no parallel in our Liturgy.

I am curious as to how the kiss of peace is carried out in Maronite parishes. Is it the same as the Syrian model (priest passes it to the deacon bearing the censer, this deacon exchanges it with the other deacons, and then with the people)? Is the prayer of the veil done along with the chalice veil's removal and waving while the bells ring and the ripidia wave?

For us, there is no kneeling of the priest immediately before the epiclesis when he sings the words of Elijah (Answer unto me, O Lord). Also, the diptychs are taken according to the set formula, and are not adapted to circumstances, although in one Liturgy in India I saw them taken in a shorter form, but that was a weekday Liturgy, and that might be an option for those.

There is another form of distribution for communion; to let the faithful personally take the Body from the paten and dip it into the cup. But it is difficult to make this a general norm, especially in the presence of a large crowd of faithful.

No, no, no, no, no. Where did this come from?

Aside from these differences which I've noted, there is quite a bit that is similar. But even going through these once through has confused me. I'm glad I could work through them in this way, though, and would be happy to learn anything that could supplement my information in this regard.

To see the Holy Qurbono of the Syrian rite as practiced by our Churches, please see http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/index.html and work through the links on the left side in order. Feel free to skip the ones labelled preface, introduction, Mawrbo, Kiss of Peace, and Supplications; you can read them later if you wish. But if you work through the rest, and insert the anaphora of Saint James, you will have a good idea of how our Liturgies work.

Shlomo Mor Ephrem,
The address for St. Ann's is:

St. Ann Maronite Church
182 Fourth St.
Troy, NY 12180
518 272-6073

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Yes, Yuhannon, I got the address from www.stmaron.org, [stmaron.org,] but when I plugged that into Mapquest and got directions, I could get to the neighbourhood alright, but after that, I circled the neighbourhood quite a few times, and couldn't find it.

Dear Mor Ephrem:

You said that the use of Syriac is mandatory amng maronites (and syriacs I suppose), though the vast part of the liturgy is in Arabic (is it right?) and that in Indian parishes syriac is scarcely used. What language does the Indian Orthodox parishes use? is it hindi the language of modern Indians? or Malayalam (is this language extinct?).

I am also curious about the external appereance of the Churches and the iconography. I know that many maronite parishes now have statues "borrowed" from the Latin Church, but some now have the veil with Eastern iconography. Does the Syriac-Indian Orthodox use iconography, icons or statues? what is the common usage of those Churches?

Dear Lance,

You wrote in a previous post "As far as prelates, I think in all the Eastern Catholic Churches, but the Byzantine, Coptic, and Syro-Malankar, the Bishops have adopted the Latin mitre. Although I think there is a push with the Syriacs to return to the Masnaphto as the Syro-Malankars have done. Also, unfortunately, I think most if not all of the non-Byzantine Eastern Catholic Churches have abandoned use of the omophor, which I believe is a tradiitonal vestment for all but the Chaldeans and Syro-Malabars".
Western Syrians, Chaldeans and Maronites use the Latin mitre, Armenians use the traditional Armenian mitre (of Western origin) wore by both Catholic and non Catholic Armenian bishop from the period of the crusades. As far as I know the omophorion is unknown as episcopal ornament in the Coptic, Ethiopian, Maronite and Chaldean-Assyrian tradition. Omophorion is wore only by the Byzantines and Armenians bishops (both Catholic and non Catholic) while Syrians bishops (I think that the Catholic ones use it as well) use something quite similar called "batrashil" probably from the Greek word "epitrakhilion" stole. Apparently the omophorion is a relatively modern episcopal ornament, probably its presence in the Church of the Armenians, Syrians as well as in the Latin Church is due to the Byzantine influence.
Yours in Christ,
F

Francisco,

Thanks for the info. I was unsure of the Copts and Ethiopians use of the omophor. However, and this relates to Phil's comparison of the Maronite and Syrian Liturgies, can Maronite non-use of the Batrashil be considered a Latinism or an Assyrianism. As you state the Assyro-Chaldean tradition does not have this vestment. Current Maronite scholarship is showing they and the Assyrians have similarities due to a common influence from Edessa. Study and comparison of the Maronite Liturgy must be done looking at both West and East Syrian Traditions.

Also, the episcopal omophor/pallium and the diaconal orarion are probably the most ancient vestments. The earliets mosaics and frescoes show these vestments. The Mitre, especially in the East, is the most modern episcopla insignia.

In Christ,
Lance

You said that the use of Syriac is mandatory amng maronites (and syriacs I suppose), though the vast part of the liturgy is in Arabic (is it right?) and that in Indian parishes syriac is scarcely used. What language does the Indian Orthodox parishes use? is it hindi the language of modern Indians? or Malayalam (is this language extinct?).

Well, the Maronites mandate that certain parts always be taken in Syriac. There is no such mandate for the Orthodox in India. One could theoretically go through Liturgy without hearing any Syriac, but most priests use at least some Syriac; priests like mine use a good amount, and there are others who use even more. But it is all optional.

Because our Church was founded in Kerala, our main liturgical languages are Syriac and Malayalam (by no means extinct, this language is one of India's 22 or so official languages). English was, if I'm not mistaken, the next language to be used in the Liturgy, and Hindi is used in the North too.

I am also curious about the external appereance of the Churches and the iconography. I know that many maronite parishes now have statues "borrowed" from the Latin Church, but some now have the veil with Eastern iconography. Does the Syriac-Indian Orthodox use iconography, icons or statues? what is the common usage of those Churches?

We use icons, and not statues, although the Syrian and Indian Churches have never been as big on icons as the Byzantines. They are, strictly speaking, not necessary. Only an altar with two candles and a cross are necessary, but one can adorn a church with as many icons as desired. So, one could have churches like this:

http://stmaryssharjah.com/images/DSC00193.JPG

or churches like this:

http://www.stmarysbronx.org/church/altar.jpg

Hope this helps.