www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Church Slavonic

Does your parish use Slavonic regularly for any part of the liturgy?

Does your parish use Church Slavonic in the liturgy? single choice
	Yes
	No
Votes accepted starting: 12/31/69 08:00 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

If yes to Question 1, would you like more Slavonic usage? single choice
	Yes, more!
	No
	Don't care
	Less Slavonic
	English only please
Votes accepted starting: 12/31/69 08:00 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

Slavonic Liturgies are beautiful to listen to. I can see a place for them on occasion in a special Liturgy.

But, why should we encourage it in a regular parish Liturgy? The average person is not interested in bilingual services. Especially in a language that is not spoken by anyone in the fellowship hall after Liturgy. St Cyril and St Methodius did not seek to keep part of the Liturgy in Greek when they did missionary work among the Slavs.

Do we really want to reach our neighbors for Christ and the Gospel? Or do we want to be a museum piece that appeals only to some of those of our ethnic background? Slavonic Liturgies doesn't appeal to many of them either. For many of them now go to Roman or Protestant parishes or have drifted away from the Faith.

Nec Aliter

Do you feel that my asking the question was an encouragement of the regular use of Slavonic? While I personally feel that retaining at least a token use is ok, I tried to word the poll to be as neutral as possible. I merely ask if any Slavonic is used in a parish and if so how do those voting in the poll feel about it?

People drift away from the church for many reasons other than a token use of a "foriegn" language.

Remember that our Liturgy is sung to melodies that fit that 'other' language which so many seem to detest. How far are we willing to lose our heritage to conform to the American idea of church? An idea which still seems to be the more RC we look and feel the more Catholic we are.

Steve

Cantor Steve,

I don't detest Slavonic. And, yes, there is a myriad of reasons why people leave the Faith.

Having all-English liturgies (or all-Spanish, etc. litugies) is not following the "American idea of the Church." It's following the example of Sts Cyril and Methodius. Did they feel the need of leaving a token amount of Greek in the liturgical services?

Having a token amount of a traditional language in the Liturgy actually follows RC practice. There are some RC parishes which use Latin in some parts of the Mass (for example, EWTN).

Granted the music doesn't always fit with English translations. That's a challenge for us. Just as Slavic melodies differ from Byzantine chant so we may be called upon to find appropriate melodies as we evangelize where we are now.

I think it is often forgotten that all Byzantines are not Slavs. With an entirely English speaking congregation, Church Slavonic becomes similar to Latin masses in the RC Church. They are both beautiful, but not understood.

However, with a little effort , one can understand at least the basics of the Slavonic used in the Liturgy. It is not an impossible thing to ask and it is a beautiful heritage.

Yes, it's a beautiful heritage.

But, why ask people who do not share that heritage to learn it? Or, are we just here to serve the children of immigrants from the old country?

Why not, instead, have periodic Slavonic Liturgies for those who want them?

We need to reach our friends and neighbors with the good news about Christ. That should be our first concern.

Well, I would think that those who join a particular Church like the Carpatho-Rusyn Byzantine Catholic Church even though they may not share that heritage would want to know at least some basics about the history and culture of that tradition and yes, maybe once in a while participate in a Liturgy in Slavonic. I don't think that goes to the extreme of asking them to "become" or to "ape" an ethnicity but just grow in love and knowledge about a tradition or have a more international outlook.
I agree with you about our first concern. Yes, you are right but there are also worthwhile things that might help us on that mission and journey that we should not just overlook or abandon just because we happen to live in 2004-05 America.

Peace,
Brian

maybe once in a while participate in a Liturgy in Slavonic.

Sure. They might once in awhile want to do so.

But, the regular Divine Liturgy should be in the language of the people we are trying to reach. Otherwise, we'll become an ethnic club or mainly appeal to people who like learning other languages.

Sts Cyril and Methodius, pray to God for us!

This is a subject that just won't die. My parish is Ukrainian Catholic, at out Liturgies the priest alternates between English and Ukrainian. All of the people's responses are sung in Ukrainian. It has taken me about 3 years and with the help of a booklet containing the Ukrainian Liturgy written in the Latin alphabet before I was able to follow along fairly well. However, there are still quite a few Ukrainian words my English speaking tongue can't quite get the hang of. Most of the parish's congregation is Ukrainian speaking, however I see a few non-Ukies or non-Ukie speaking Ukies coming for Liturgy these days. So who does the parish serve? The ones who have grown old in the service of their Church and who may even have suffered for their religion? Or do we serve those who are showing an interest and may or may not be there in the future? It isn't an easy question to answer. I would like to see more English used at my parish, but not at the expense of making it more difficult for those who have been a member of our Church for 70, 80 or 90 years.

On a lighter note, I've been coming often enough now that at cake and coffee after Liturgy, the little old ladies come up and talk to me in Ukrainian, then laugh and then say in English they had forgotten I didn't speak it. So, I guess that means I am welcome there!

Don

A few points to consider:

a) did Saints Cyril and Methodius (or those who followed them) leave any small bits and pieces of the service in Greek? Yes - particularly at the Pontifical Liturgy and at ordinations.

b) was Church-Slavonic ever a language used for a fellowship hour of conversation outside the Divine Liturgy? No.

c) what is the best first step in learning some Church-Slavonic? Learn the alphabet! It won't take that long, honest.

d) what is the best first step in promoting a greater use of English? Support the translating and distribution of the English-language service books (meaning complete translations). Most are on the market: how complete is your parish's set? How complete a set do you personally have? And how are you supporting the translation of those books which have not yet been translated and published in English?

Rejoice and be glad, for great is your reward in Heaven!

Incognitus

Our parish has hardly anyone who understands Slavonic, including our Irish bi-ritual priest. We did have one Ukrainian family, but they left in a huff after some trivial dispute with our priest. I know it's beyond belief that Ukrainians could be difficult to get along with, but I assure you, it happened. I think it was something about the tail wanting to wag the dog... For us, Church Slavonic would be a curiousity, not any link with our heritage. I have been to Slavonic liturgies and they are very beautiful, but they are not for everyone.

Don - please forgive the off topic bit here.

Where did you manage to find a transliterated copy of the Liturgy - I have been hunting for one for ages - literally. I was sure it must be obtainable .

When I am in London it would be wonderful - that way I could participate more - at present I can just manage the responses.

In Lourdes on my last visit Father served in English and Ukrainian for my benefit - but I cannot rely on this. I really need the transliteration. After all I cannot get to Liturgy often enough to learn things by constant repetition.

Anhelyna

Thanks, Incognitus, for the comments.

a) did Saints Cyril and Methodius (or those who followed them) leave any small bits and pieces of the service in Greek? Yes - particularly at the Pontifical Liturgy and at ordinations.

True. But there's a difference between chanting "Axios!" and having whole sections of the Liturgy in another language. One acquaintance visited one of our parishes when the Hymn of the Incarnation, the Trisagion, the Cherubic Hymn and the Commemoration of the Mother of God were all in Slavonic. He liked what he heard but his wife and children didn't. He and his family now attend an Orthodox parish where everything is in English.

b) was Church-Slavonic ever a language used for a fellowship hour of conversation outside the Divine Liturgy? No.

My understanding was that it was similar to what was spoken in what is now Bulgaria. Languages in that area were not standardized at that time and this is the best they could do to reach the Slavs.

c) what is the best first step in learning some Church-Slavonic? Learn the alphabet! It won't take that long, honest.

That won't convince most vistors to our parishes.

d) what is the best first step in promoting a greater use of English? Support the translating and distribution of the English-language service books (meaning complete translations). Most are on the market: how complete is your parish's set? How complete a set do you personally have? And how are you supporting the translation of those books which have not yet been translated and published in English?

Excellent points. Perhaps the Metropolia of Pittsburgh could put them online?

Nec

Dear Nec Aliter,
We might differ as to what a "whole section" (seems a contradiction in terms) is, but never mind.
I did not suggest that everyone who sets foot in one of our Churches should learn the Church-Slavonic alphabet! I suggested, and will continue to suggest, that anyone who wants that language to be taken seriously should prove it, by learning the alphabet. It really doesn't take all that long.
Surprise: there are sources for translations of the Byzantine service-books which offer English texts that are far more complete than those available from Pittsburgh. If you want to support the use of English, make sure that your parish purchases at least one copy of EVERYTHING. If you want to do more than that, trying purchasing a complete set yourself - where your treasure is, there will your heart be.
The Germans refer to Church-Slavonic as "Old-Bulgarian". Whether that is warranted is for the scholars to debate. My point remains valid: Church-Slavonic as we now have it was never anybody's vernacular.

Anhelyna: sorry to sound unsympathetic, but transliterations are never really satisfactory. Learn the Ukrainian alphabet (it will take you infinitely less time than tracking down transliterations). And the Ukrainian alphabet is a lot simpler than the Church-Slavonic alphabet. However, the next problem will be that even less is available in modern Ukrainian than is available in English - so Church-Slavonic will be around for a while yet.

Incognitus