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Dear Amadeus - forgive me for disagreeing, but I believe that the appointment of His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius Moussa Daoud was made before his "elevation" to the red hat.

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Gordo - as with anyone they can look impeccable on paper. Sure, there is an impressive list of credentials and speaking experience. So did Bugnini.

But actions and actual performance are what to look at. I think that is the case here - his actions make him something akin to a bull in a china shop as far as the Greek Catholics are concerned. Give us Werth, or somebody else, please. Several new RC dioceses have been erected within Russia - but when the Greek Catholics meet and attempt to exercise some degree of sui iuris identity, they get nastygrams and censures. Don't seem right.

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Dear Friends:

Further to the conversation, his Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius Moussa Daoud was de-facto Patriarch when he was appointed to the Prefecture of the Eastern Churches.

He stepped down from his Patriarchal see but was given the courtesy title of Patriarch Emeritus (it looks better on the cards you know).

He was then confirmed as a Roman Cardinal at the next consistory.

It is also my understanding that a Bishop, Archbishop or such, does not loose his title if he is appointed a Cardinal.

A Cardinal as you may know, is entirely a distinction of the Roman Metropolitan see.

As such it becomes an added title to a Bishop or Archbishop.

The current Archbishop of Toronto also happens to be a Cardinal.

He did not become Cardinal of Toronto, as there is no such thing, but became His Eminence Aloysius Cardinal Ambrozich, Archbishop of Toronto.


defreitas


ps.
If I were Cardinal Kasper I would step-down and save me the disgrace of being politely asked to retire (probably within the next year or so). For all his efforts with the Orthodox the good Cardinal has achieved nothing substantive. Maybe as (and with) a German he will have better luck with the Reformed Churches.

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Hello all! This is my first post. I'm a Syro-Malabar Catholic, though I was raised as a Latin in the US. (When I was growing up, I always wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, and then I discovered that I actually am an Eastern Catholic when I was around 20 years old!)

Anyway, I have a few comments:

1. Much as I am happy for the whole Syro-Malankara Catholic Church for its elevation to Major-Archiepiscopal rank, and much as I believe Mar Baselios should have the title "Catholicos", it doesn't make any sense to me when he says that "the title of Catholicos ... comes automatically to a Major Archbishop in accordance with the tradition of the Syro-Malankara Church". The problem with this statement is that never before in the history of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church have they had a Major Archbishop. So, there can be no "tradition" (unless the tradition is a few months old) that says "All Major Archbishops of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church automatically receive the title of 'Catholicos'".

2. Jeff, thanks for pointing out that what Cardinal Kasper said isn't necessarily in contradiction to what Mar Baselios said.

3. "Archbishop" is obviously not a title that's new to the Christian East, but "Major Archbishop" is a title that originated only recently, and only exists within the Catholic East. Can anyone enlighten me as to the first time the title "Major Archbishop" was used?

4. As to whether a Cardinal is "higher" than a Major Archbishop, or vice versa, I recall reading that during Vatican II, there was a controversy on how the seating arrangements of the Patriarchs and Cardinals should be arranged, in order to correctly reflect their "rank" -- I don't remember how the controversy was solved. Does anyone here know?
Regardless of seating arrangements at Vatican II, though, I'm of the opinion that the title of Major Archbishop is a higher "honor" than the title of Cardinal, simply because a Major Archbishop is spiritual head of a whole sui juris Church, while a Cardinal isn't necessarily the head of even a Congregation in the Roman Curia. Just looking at the numbers, there's only one Pope, and there are only a few Patriarchs and Major Archbishops, but there are a lot of Cardinals.
On the other hand, one could look at this from the perspective of each sui juris Church involved: Within the Latin Catholic Church, the title of Cardinal is indeed a very high honor, while the title of Major Archbishop doesn't mean a thing; in the same way, within the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, the title of Major Archbishop is the highest there is, while the title of Cardinal doesn't mean a thing.

5. The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is indeed not happy with its Major-Archiepiscopal status. We'd much rather have a Patriarch. I think the Vatican's reluctance to do this stems, not from inter-Church relations (as in the case of the UGCC), but rather from intra-Church relations. The Syro-Malabar Liturgy is very heavily Latinized, and for a long time, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church has been beset with controversies about how the Liturgy should be celebrated -- as far as I know, the debates may have died down somewhat, but they haven't been resolved. One group (supported by people in the Congregation for the Oriental Churches) holds that the Syro-Malabar Liturgy should become less Latin and more Chaldean, and another group (supported by many Syro-Malabar clergy) holds that the Liturgy should become less Latin and more Indian. I am of the opinion that the Liturgy should be both: To develop a truly "Syro-Malabar" Liturgy, the Chaldean Liturgy ought to be used as a basis, and then this basis should be inculturated and adapted to its Indian - and specifically Keralan - context, by blending in (appropriate!) elements from today's Malayalee culture.

6. I agree that the CCEO should be rewritten... How does it make sense that there exists a Code for one (admittedly very large) sui juris Church -- the Latin Catholic Church -- while another single Code is expected to cover the situations of 22 diverse sui juris Churches? Would it not make much more sense for the elements that are common to the Canon Law of the entire Catholic Church to be put into a Code that applies to the whole Church, and for each of the 23 sui juris Churches to have its own Code?

7. I also agree with Fr. Deacon Lance in that the head of each sui juris Church should have immediate jurisdiction over his entire flock, rather than over only those faithful who fall within the "proper territory" of the Church. It seems insulting to me when the Major Archbishop of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church has jurisdiction only over those Syro-Malabar eparchies that are located in Kerala, while the Syro-Malabar eparchies in the rest of India (and the eparchy in the US) report to the Holy Father.
For that matter, why does a Congregation in the Roman Curia get to be in charge of all the non-Roman Churches (which are supposed to be sui juris -- under their own law)? If there ever is such a thing as a Curia for the whole Church (as opposed to for the Roman Catholic Church), then I don't mind if it has some jurisdiction over all the sui juris Churches, but I don't think the Roman Curia ought to have any jurisdiction over any non-Roman Church. Of course, this is a whole other discussion...

8. I don't believe Ignace Moussa Daoud was appointed Prefect of the Congregation for the Oriental Churches because he was a Cardinal. biggrin Rather, I think he was appointed Prefect because he was qualified for the position, and then he was created Cardinal because the Prefect is (almost?) always a Cardinal. Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

All right, so much for my "few" comments.

Thanks, everyone, for a great forum! I've been a lurker here for a few years now. Mind you, I don't have too much time to post, so please don't be offended if I don't respond to your responses to my post. smile


Yours in the Peace of Christ,
Alex NvV


Quote
Originally posted by Ray S.:
The title comes by tradition, says Syro-Malankara Church [newindpress.com]

Quote
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Syro-Malankara Church Major Archbishop Cyril Mar Baselios has announced that the title of Catholicos is not to be conferred by the Vatican but comes automatically to a Major Archbishop in accordance with the tradition of the Syro-Malankara Church.

He was reacting to the letter written by Dialogue Committee President of Vatican Walter Cardinal Kasper to the Orthodox Church stating that the Vatican had not conferred the title of Catholicos on Cyril Mar Baselios.

Baselios told reporters here on Wednesday that according to the tradition of the Syro-Malankara Church, those who were being elevated to the post of Major Archbishop would automatically become a Catholicos.

The late Pope John Paul II had elevated him to the post of Catholicos in March-April last. �Cardinal Varkey Vithayathil of the Syro-Malabar Church had, in fact, referred to me as Catholicos at the meeting to felicitate me on my elevation to the post of Major Archbishop,� he said.
Thoughts?

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While I fully and gladly support the position of Catholicos Mar Basileios, the assertion that it is a "tradition" that the title of Catholicos is included in the rank of Major Archbishop (a most untraditional title in itself) reminds me of a sign which is said to have appeared on a university lawn somewhere in the midwest, as follows:

"It is a tradition of the University of X that students, faculty members, staff and visitors do not walk across this lawn. This tradition began this past Monday."

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Originally posted by Amadeus:
Michael_Thoma:

Within the Roman Church, a Cardinal has a higher dignity than an Archbishop, Metropolitan or otherwise.

It comes as an insult to us Latins for you to demote His Eminence, Cardinal Kasper, to his previous title as "Archbishop." Only the Pope can do that!

HB Daoud was appointed Prefect of the Congregation for Oriental Churches not because he was Patriarch of the Syrians (he was retired when he was appointed) but because he was/is a Cardinal. The major dicasteries in the Roman Curia are always headed by Cardinals.

Amado
It is an insult to refer to the Catholicos as only an Archbishop when our Church has no such title. We also do not have the title 'Cardinal' so if the Curia wishes to refer to us in Western terminology, why should we not refer to them in Eastern terminology?

In regard to my Syro-Malabar brother, this article shows that the nature of a Major Archiepiscopal Church is similar to that of an autonomous Orthodox Church - if the Malankara Syriac Orthodox and Malankara Orthodox refer to their autonomous/autocephalous Church leader as 'Catholicos' (a West Syriac title), why are we prevented?

Quote
Major archiepiscopal church

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM, MARCH 17. The elevation of Malankara Catholic Church as major archiepiscopal church will take place at the St. Mary's Cathedral at Pattom here next month. Announcing this at a press conference here on Thursday, Issac Mar Cleemis, Bishop of Thiruvalla, said Moran Mor Cyril Baselios would be installed as the major Archbishop-Catholicos on the occasion. According to Bishop Cleemis, the elevation as major archiepiscopal church gives the Malankara Catholic Church an autonomous status. Cardinal Moussa Daoud, prefect of the congregation for oriental churches, would officiate at the ceremonies scheduled to be held at 8 a.m. on April 7. The apostolic nuncio, Archbishop Pedro Lopes, a representative of Pope John Paul II in the country, will also grace the occasion.

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From Wiki:
Quote
Catholicos
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Catholicos (plural Catholicoi) is a title used by the head bishop of any of certain Eastern churches. It is derived from the Greek Καθολικος, meaning universal or general.

The title seems to have arisen sometime after the establishment of five patriarchs (of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem). The title first seems to have been applied to a deputy of the Patriarch of Antioch who administered the churces east of the Roman Empire, under Persian control. This Catholicos of the East was known as Maphryānā (translated as Maphrian or Fructifier) in Syriac. Likewise, the heads of major churches outside of the Roman Empire bore the title catholicos.

The title is used in the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is one of the Oriental Orthodox churches. His Holiness, the Catholicos of All Armenians presides over the Supreme Spiritual Council (the Armenian Church's governing college of bishops), and is the head of the world's 7 million Armenian Apostolic Christians. It is also used in the Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church, whose head carries the title Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia. Historically, the title was also used by the chief bishop of Caucasian Albania.

Catholicos of the East is title borne by a number of church leaders in India. The head of the Indian Orthodox Church and the leader of the Indian portion of the Syriac Orthodox Church both use the title.

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Quote
In regard to my Syro-Malabar brother, this article shows that the nature of a Major Archiepiscopal Church is similar to that of an autonomous Orthodox Church - if the Malankara Syriac Orthodox and Malankara Orthodox refer to their autonomous/autocephalous Church leader as 'Catholicos' (a West Syriac title), why are we prevented?
My dear Syro-Malankara brother, cool

I certainly have no objection to the title of Catholicos for the hierarch of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. In fact, I find "Catholicos" to be much more "eastern" than "Major Archbishop". Perhaps the former should be used in place of the latter, in all of the Eastern Catholic Churches that are currently of major-archiepiscopal status, even those not in the Antiochian tradition. (Of course, some may say that it would be inappropriate to use a Syrian term in, say, a Church of the Byzantine tradition. However, is "Major Archbishop" really all that much better?) I certainly would have no problem if Mar Varkey card. Vithayathil were called "Catholicos" instead of "Major Archbishop".

Quote
According to Bishop Cleemis, the elevation as major archiepiscopal church gives the Malankara Catholic Church an autonomous status.
While I agree that the Eastern Catholic Churches of major-archiepiscopal and patriarchal status should have an autonomous status, I do not think that these church do have an autonomous status, judging by the say they are treated by the Roman Curia.

Thank you also for the historical background on the term "Catholicos".


Peace,
Alex NvV

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Dear Alex,

Could you explain about that beautiful Cross in your avatar?

Also, any info on your Church? Your Divine Office? Is it online?

Your saints?

Which St Alexander are you named for?

Alex

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Dear Alex,

Thank you for calling the cross beautiful. Actually, it's my own rendition of the more traditional Mar Thoma Cross. For more info about it, please take a look at http://alexnvv.home.comcast.net/mtcross.html .

More info about the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church... Well, the official homepage is http://www.thesyromalabarchurch.org/ . My Syro-Malankara brother Michael_Thoma has earlier posted admirably about the St. Thomas Christians in general (see https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003308;p=2#000021 ). I have a bit about the Syro-Malabar Church on my own site: http://alexnvv.home.comcast.net/syro-mal.html

Is my Divine Office online? I wish! It is available from the Libreria Editrice Vaticana, but it's in Syriac (or Malayalam -- I don't remember which). I own a copy (at my parents' house in California), but I sure can't read it, since I understand neither of those languages. frown

The Syro-Malabar saints: We have none (yet).
We have three Blesseds:
  • the Fransiscan Clarist Bl. Alphonsa of the Immaculate Conception (Anna Muttathupadathu) of Bharananganam;
  • the Discalced Carmelite of Mary Immaculate Bl. Kuriakose of the Holy Family (Kuriakose Elias Chavara), Priest;
  • the Holy Family Sister Bl. Mariam Thresia (Thresia Chiramel Mankidiyan).

We have two Venerables:
  • Ven. Augustine Thevarparampil Kuzhumpil, Priest;
  • the Discalced Carmelite of the Mother of Carmel Ven. Euphrasia of the Sacred Heart of Jesus (Rosa Eluvathingal).

We have five Servants of God:
  • the Servant of God Joseph Vithayathil, Priest;
  • the Sacred Heart Father Servant of God Mathew Kadalikkattil, Priest;
  • the Servant of God Mathew Kavukatt, Archbishop;
  • the Franciscan Clarist Servant of God Rani Maria (Mariam Vattalil), Martyr;
  • the Servant of God Thomas Kurialacherry, Bishop.


(The last one is a not-too-distant relative of mine.)

Which St. Alexander am I named for? I wish I knew! I was named after my father's father, whose name was "Chandy", which is Syriac for "Alexander". However, the name on my birth certificate is actually "Alex", not "Alexander". So, I ask all the Saints Alexander and all the Saints Alexius to pray for me. smile


Peace,
Alex NvV


Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Alex,

Could you explain about that beautiful Cross in your avatar?

Also, any info on your Church? Your Divine Office? Is it online?

Your saints?

Which St Alexander are you named for?

Alex

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Dear Alex,

How wonderful!

Your Blesseds are also saints - their canonization will not change anything about their liturgical veneration.

The Ukrainian Church too has a controversy over the Cross - those who say that the three-bar Orthodox Cross is not "ours" and those that say it is (I believe it is "ours!").

There is an English translation of the Syriac office by a Syriac Catholic priest living in India - his work is especially esteemed by the Syriac Orthodox there.

Information on how to order it, if you wish, are in Fr. Taft's book "Divine Office, East and West."

That office is in several books - and it contains some readings from some other religions of India.

If you wanted to PM me your birthday, I could find a St Alexander whose feast is close to it - I was named for St Alexius the Man of God who is celebrated March 30th, Old Calendar, one day after my birthday.

Certainly, the popular of "Alexander" throughout the Middle East comes from its association with Alexander the Great, as you know.

His many-pointed Star of Vergina can be seen (with 8 points) in the sewing crafts of the area.

Cheers,

Alex

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<---------------------

My patron saint and your namesake says "hello" to you Alex! wink

You know, Alexis was a good Roman boy like you until he abandoned all earthly cares to lead his holy life in Edessa!

And I owe most of that knowledge from the wonderful Akathist of St. Alexis that you so graciously mailed me.

Now, if I could only learn how to chant it! mad

Logos Teen

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Quote
Originally posted by Deacon El:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Concerning Cardinal Kasper and Christian unity with Eastern Churches, we should consider his participation as plenary speaker in the Orientale Lumen Conference in 2004 held in Constantinople.

Patriarch Bartholomew I served as host for the Conference. The plenary speakers included:

Patriarch Gregory III (Laham), Melkite Greek -Catholic Church, Damascus, Syria

Walter Cardinal Kasper, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, The Vatican

Deacon El
I may be mistaken, but though he agreed to attend, and agreed to speak, it is my understanding that his Eminence chickened out at the last minute, and didn't show. Something about Moscow and their objections to the Uniates who were attending, I think?

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Quote
Originally posted by Amadeus:
Michael_Thoma:

It comes as an insult to us Latins for you to demote His Eminence, Cardinal Kasper, to his previous title as "Archbishop"....................

Amado
It came as an insult to many of us Latins
when so many of these NINCOMPOOPS
were made Cardinals in the first place....

antonius

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Dear Teen Logo (Alex),

Hello yourself!

You are welcome!

The day after tomorrow is the Old Calendar feast day of St Alexius the Man of God in the West!

Alex

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