www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem fires Patriarch Irineos I

What I find confusing is that it took over two years for Israel to accept Patriarch Irineos I.

Israel never found him acceptable because of his Palestinian leanings. As a matter of fact, it was pressure from this country that made Israel finally accept him. (The Patriarch of Jerusalem must be accepted by Jordan, the Palestinians and Israel). Now we hear that an Israeli newspaper claims that he sold land to a Jewish group thereby turning the Palestinians against him.

Could he have been set up? That the Patriarch of Constantinople has ceased to accept him really means nothing other than wanting to retain the peace.

Zenovia

... At Aston, Birmingham or UCE? grace and peace, wg

Christ is Risen!
Although I also hate the negativity-driven news media of the USA, and I don't own a television and rely on foreign news sources for most of the non-local news, and although it saddens me that it is a scandal that brings the Holy Church of Jerusalem to FOX (who probably don't even give the other side of the story, that the patriarch is probably not personally responsible ... or do they?), and not the miracle of the Holy Light, or Pascha, as an Orthodox Christian, I am quite heartened that they don't cover those other groups!

The Orthodox Patriarchate is blessed by the Lord with the Miracle of the Holy Fire every year, and the Patriarchate makes the Holy City available to pilgrims from around the world. The other groups are but scavengers who have disrupted the work of the successor of the Apostle James. The present scandal is minuscule in the picture of the history of the Holy Church of God.

For most of the history of Christianity, only one denomination was present in Jerusalem: The Holy Orthodox Church; the present patriarch is the successor of the Apostle James and there has been an Orthodox Bishop of Jerusalem from the time of the Apostle James to the present (although, from 1099 to 1087, thanks to the sacking of Jerusalem by the Latin crusaders, he lived in exile in Constantinople).

There had been Monophysites in the Holy City in the fifth and sixth centuries, but with the spread of Mohammedanism, they were assimilated, again leaving only Orthodox.

When Jerusalem fell to the Mohammedans in AD 637, Saint Sophronius, the Patriarch, negotiated the Christians keeping the Holy places, and the Byzantines negotiated treaties to allow the safe passage of Christian pilgrims to and from Jerusalem.

All was well until the crusaders waged war on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Christian and Mohammedan together. God, in His mercy, granted victory in the end to the Orthodox when the crusaders were expelled from Palestine in 1230.

In the 13th century, Armenians arrived and formed their own patriarchate.

In the 14th century, Franciscans arrived in the Holy Land, and together with the Monophysites, bribed the Mohammedans to be allowed to partially control the Holy Places. This led to the present mess whereby the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is divided in space and time among sundry denominations (and the keys are kept with a Mohammedan family!), and now new groups who set up camp in Jerusalem are allowed to continue the disruption.

Photius, Reader

Dear Photios,

Unless I'm mistaken the Patriarch of Jerusalem is picked by Greece, and the scandals with Irineos are also connected to the scandals in Greece. The Palestinian Orthodox want their Patriarch to be an Arab...not a Greek. Frankly, they do not trust the Greeks and they have every right to want one of their own.

On the other hand, the Patriarch would have to be highly educated theologically, and that could only be done in Greece. Also, Greece is not so willing to give up her say if she is making payments, nor her incomes...whichever is the case.

The last Patriarch, (a Greek relative of mine), was taken to court because it was alleged that he had leased some land to Israel and kept the money...which he might have, after all it had been habitual throughout the centuries. It cames with the territory. The only difference with today is that it is now a great deal of money. At one time, it was merely an income. The Israeli courts did free him from the charge. That though did not stop the Palestinians from suspecting him.

As for the Holy Fire, one has to realize that our Lord with all His Love and Wisdom, will never have miracles in Latin churches in Orthodox lands, nor miracles in Orthodox churches in Latin lands...After all, our Lord is a Lord of peace and love, not one of dissension. When thinking in those terms, one has to realize that the Holy Fire can only occur in an Orthodox Liturgy at Easter in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. It does not mean that we are 'holier' than thou. Especially considering the actual fighting that goes on.

What I find the most appalling though, is that the Orthodox will not allow the heads of other denominations to take part in passing the 'Light' of the World to the people. I also find it appalling to see that every piece of space in that magnificent church being watched over by the different denominations for fear of losing it. Besides, where are the Lutherans?

The infighting between Christians is disgraceful and what a terrible witness we are to the world. I sincerely believe that it will only be a matter of time before we, (and by that I mean all Christians), will end up losing all our holy places.

Zenovia

Shlomo Lkholkhoon,

As of tonight, both Palestine and Jordan have recognized the dismissal of Patriarch Irineos. But Israel is holding it up. If Israel does, as it did for two years without recognizing his election, then there could be a schism in the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhooon,
Yuhannon

"As of tonight, both Palestine and Jordan have recognized the dismissal of Patriarch Irineos. But Israel is holding it up. If Israel does, as it did for two years without recognizing his election, then there could be a schism in the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem."

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Dear Yuhannon,

I'm not being critical of Israel, but common sense should tell people that Israel would like nothing more than seeing the Orthodox Church fall apart. Actually, they are smart enough to kindle as well as perpetuate grievances between all Christian faiths for their well being. Can you imagine how we would feel if our Capital or White House was on land owned by Muslims?

Israel knows very well the concept of divide and conquer. While we fight and bicker over stupidities, we will all lose what is precious.

Zenovia

Photius:

The tenor of your post seems to indicate that of all the Christian Churches ONLY the Greek Orthodox Church is favored by Our Lord with her "miracle" of the Holy Fire!

How about the other Orthodox Churches? No, they are not worthy. Not the Armenians, the Copts, the Ethiopians? And not the Russians? How about your own Church, ROCOR?

For sure, not us Catholics!

What a hypocrisy!

Amado

Photius:

Pardon my inquisitive Latin mind, but has there been a recorded and verified picture or video of either the Greek Orthodox Patriarch or the Armenian Orthodox Patriarch showing how, when, and where the INITIAL candle is miraculously lit up?

All the still pictures and video clips thus far being shown are the light being passed from inside the tomb to the faithful waiting outside and to the others in and outside of the Church.

I think this "gap" leads some people to believe in this alleged "first person" account of the event:

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/doc_Guardian2001.htm

Amado

Photius, Reader

Christ is Risen!
I seriously doubt that there is such a video, because that would require the patriarchs taking a video camera with them. And even if there were, unbelievers would not beleive, choosing rather to assume that there is some trickery involved, at least with the filming.

The tomb is checked thourougly and the patriarch is stripped to his sticharion and searched. For many centuries, this was performed performed by the Mohammedans, who were at a loss to explain the miracle.

Certainly, there are many witnesses to the fact that the flame when new does not burn.

It is remarkable that you post a link to an anti-religous, perhaps atheistic, publication in your attempt to discredit the Orthodox Church.

Photius, Reader

By putting "miracle" in quotes, may I assume you discount its authenticity?

Yes, only the Orthodox Church ... I never said "Greek"; it the the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, which presently has a Greek hierarchy, but is more accurately the Palestinian Orthodox Church.

Consider this well-known (at least in the Orthodox world) account of the priestmonk Parthenius:

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The miracle of the Holy Fire at Sepulcher church, Jerusalem, 1547
Let me tell you about this: At the Great Gates themselves, on the left side, stands a column made out of marble with a fissure from which the grace, that is, the Holy Fire, came forth. This column is honored by Orthodox as well as non-Orthodox, and even the Armenians. I would like to write a little about this incident, how the Orthodox Eastern Christians unanimously speak of it and the Turks themselves confirm it. In the wall there is an inscribed marble slab, and they say that this very incident is written on it; but we could not read it because it is written in Syrian letters, in the Arab tongue; and I only heard about it, but did not read it. But the incident happened something like this: At one time when the Greeks were completely oppressed by the Turkish yoke, some rich Armenians took it into their heads to force the Greeks out of the Holy Sepulcher and out of the Church of the Resurrection. They gathered a large sum of money and bribed the Ottoman Porte and all the Jerusalem authorities, assuring the unbelievers that the Holy Fire comes forth not simply for the sake of the Greeks, but for all Christians, and "if we Armenians are there, we also will receive it!" And the Turks, who are greedy for money, accepted the bribe and therefore did as the Armenians wished, and they affirmed that only the Armenians would be allowed to receive the Holy Fire. The Armenians rejoiced greatly and wrote to all their lands and to their faithful, that more of them should go on a pilgrimage. And a great multitude of them did come. Holy Saturday approached: The Armenians all gathered in the church, and the Turkish army drove the poor Greeks out. Oh, what unspeakable grief and sorrow filled the Greeks! There was only one comfort for them -- the Grave of the Savior, and they were being kept away from it, and the Holy Gates were locked to them! The Armenians were inside the church and the Orthodox were on the streets. The Armenians were rejoicing and the Greeks were weeping. The Armenians were celebrating and the Greeks were bitterly lamenting!
The Orthodox stood opposite the Holy Gates on the court and around them stood the Turkish army, watching so that there would not be a fight. The Patriarch himself with all the rest stood there with candles, hoping that they would at least receive the Fire from the Armenians through the window. But the Lord wished to dispose things in a different way, and to manifest His true Faith with a fiery finger and comfort His true servants, the humble Greeks. The time had already come when the Holy Fire issues forth, but nothing happened. The Armenians were frightened and began to weep, and ask God that He send them the Fire; but the Lord did not hear them.
Already a half hour had passed and more, and still no Holy Fire. The day was clear and beautiful; the Patriarch sat to the right side. All of a sudden there was a clap of thunder, and on the left side the middle marble column cracked and out of the fissure a flame of fire came forth. The Patriarch arose and lit his candles and all the Orthodox Christians lit theirs from his. Then all rejoiced, and the Orthodox Arabs from Jordan began to skip and cry out, "Thou art our one God, Jesus Christ; one is our True Faith, that of the Orthodox Christians!" And they began to run about all of Jerusalem and raise a din, and to shout all over the city. And to this day they still do this in memory of the incident and they jump and shout, running around the Holy Sepulcher, and they praise the one true God, Jesus Christ, and bless the Orthodox Faith. Beholding this wonder, the Turkish army, which was standing around on guard, was greatly amazed and terrified. From amongst them one named Omir, who was standing at the St. Abraham's Monastery on guard, immediately believed in Christ and shouted, "One is the true God, Jesus Christ; one is the true faith, that of the Orthodox Christians!" And he jumped down to the Christians from a height of more than 35 feet. His feet landed on the solid marble as if though on soft wax.
And to this day one can see his footprints imprinted as though in wax, although the non-Orthodox tried to erase them. I saw them with my own eyes and felt them with my own hands. And the column with the fissure still bears the scorch marks. As for Omir the soldier, having jumped down, he took his weapon and thrust it into the stone as though into soft wax, and began to glorify Christ unceasingly. For this, the Turks beheaded him and burned his body; the Greeks gathered up his bones, put them into a case and took them to the Convent of the Great Panagia, where they gush forth fragrance until this day. The Armenians in the Holy Sepulcher received nothing and were left only with their shame. The Pasha of Jerusalem and other Turkish authorities were greatly displeased with them and wanted to slaughter them all, but they feared the Sultan. They only punished them heavily: They say that they made each one to eat dung as he left the church.

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See the above anecdote and please realize that although the Armenians, the Copts, and the Ethiopians, call themselves "Orthodox", they are a different denomination, which only accepts three Ecumenical Councils. Although they can not receive the Holy Fire from the heavens, we do pass it on to them.

ROCOR is in Communion with the Patriarch of Jerusalem, and we receive the Holy Fire. As a matter of fact, circa 1970, a friend of mine, the Archdeacon John, brought the Holy Fire to America where it is still burning in many ROCOR Churches.

Apparently not!

It saddens me that you reckon our God a hypocrite; we Orthodox folk call that "blasphemy".

Amado [/QB][/QUOTE]

Photius, Reader

Dear Amadeos,

The Holy Fire does exist. There have been times when it appeared in other parts of the church, and sometimes it would take hours of praying.

I believe it comes to the Orthodox Patriarch because he is in direct line to the original Patriarch. I can see no other reason for it other than that. We Orthodox are certainly not showing the love that Christ expects from us in regards to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, or in Jerusalem during the 'Anastasi'.

If I recall correctly, fist fights have broken out during the most holiest night of all.

Zenovia

Shlomo Photius,

I have two questions for you. First, why are you being so offensive to members of the Oriental Orthodox faith? And two, what history books have you been reading, because you are very inaccurate about the Church in Jerusalem?

Never has the Eastern Orthodox Church been the only Church in Jerusalem. They may have repressed the other Churches during the rule of the Byzantine Empire, but never have they been the sole Liturgical Tradition. There have been Syriac Orthodox bishops in Jerusalem since 793. Armenian sources date the first Patriarchate to a charter given by the Caliph Omar to Patriarch Abraham in the year 638. Both Copts and Ethiopian Christians have been in Jerusalem since the very beginnings of the Church. We Maronites were not only in Lebanon, but also Palestine.

Further, many of the Saints of the modern Church would be very supprised to here you say that ONLY the Eastern Orthodox Church has received miracles in the Holy Land. I am sure all those that were cured in the name of Jesus by Eastern Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, and members of the Church of the East are wondering if they were "secret" Eastern Orthodox. Since only Eastern Orthodox only blessed for such things within "their" territories according to you.

Lastly, in defense of my Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters. Greece, nor any other Eastern Orthodox EUROPEAN training in Theology is any better than that of the University of Balamand.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

None! It was the first two exams of my professional qualifications for the ATT - Association of Tax Technicians. I have left the world of the university and have entered the adult work(!) with the taxes and fun...hehe. I work for the financial services firm Deloitte & Touche.

Cheers
Anton

I don't want to get too involved in this, some of my words have already caused problems though they were not meant to. My 13 year old son, James, did put his two cents in and I found his input thought provoking-"Dad, why is there enough religion to start wars, but not enough to instill tolerance?" I inquired as to where this came from? James said he wasn't sure if he read it of if it just came to him. For (4) years my son has been trying to understand why the Holy Land where our Lord walked is so violent. I bid everyone on this forum peace. Time to read more before I get myself into trouble.