www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Catholic Lent and Calendars

Friends-

Two questions:

1. Lent seems pretty early this year for us Catholics. On what basis is are these dates set?

2. I looked at a calendar from the Greek Orthodox Eparchy and their Lent and Pascha dates are substantially later than the Catholic ones. They're not is not an old-calendar Eparchy, are they? What then is the reason for the difference?

Thanks for any info you can provide,

Marc

Marc:

The calculus is I believe the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox.

While you are correct that (most of) the Greek Church now uses the Gregorian calendar - this applies to immovable Feasts only. Movable Feasts, i.e. Pascha and the Feasts that are determined from the date of Pascha are still determined based upon the Julian in the Greek Church.

An interesting theological point to add here is that determination of Pascha according to the Julian renders it impossible for Pascha to occur prior to the start of Passover.

Hope this helps.

Yours,

hal

Dear hal,

Your calculation is for the date of Easter in the Latin Church.

To calculate Ash Wednesday in the Latin Church take Easter Sunday and back up 40 days (not counting Sundays). Sundays are not counted as days of Lent by Latins.

Paul

Hello,

I'd be interested in knowing how is this statement NOT true when you use the Gregorian calendar.

I guess this is partially because of the method for calculating Passover, but I must confess I do not know what calendar is used or who does the official calculations.

Thanks.

Shalom,
Memo

Hi Marc,

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, as well as the Antiochian and Orthodox Church in America, are all on the Julian Calendar. We are not what is called 'Old Calendrists'. However, the one place where the calendar changes and differs from the West is in determining the date of Pascha/Easter.

Hope this helps!

Actually--some bishops have been talking about the fact that the Western caluculation is more accurate...it was very complex, and I have forgotten most of it--although the argument made sense-- so sorry that I cannot elaborate.

It would be nice if we celebrated Easter every year with our Western brethren!

On the other hand--the weather is usually nicer on Orthodox Easter--atleast here in the NE--LOL

In Christ,
Alice

"An interesting theological point to add here is that determination of Pascha according to the Julian renders it impossible for Pascha to occur prior to the start of Passover."

And this is the main objection to the Gregorian Paschalion by the Orthodox. The criteria sanctioned by Nicea was that Pashca be celebrated on 1) the first Sunday 2) after the first full moon 3)after the vernal equinox and 4) also after the end of the Jewish Passover.

However, the Jews changed the way they calculate Passover several time since the destruction of Jerusalem. When Pope Gregory VII introduced the corrected calendar this was known so he did not concern himself with when Passover fell since the Jews were and are not using the method used in Christ's time.

Dear Friends,

But the Greeks and Antiochians are on the "Revised Julian Calendar" which is basically the Gregorian calendar with the Orthodox Easter.

What Fr. Deacon Lance said is very true and the celebration of Pascha with the Jewish Passover breaks the canons of the First Council which is why Orthodoxy will never agree to the Western Paschal calculation.

I don't see why the Churches could not agree to accept the Gregorian calendar on the one hand, but also the Orthodox Easter on the other so as not to break the Easter canon to which the universal Church bound itself at the Council for all time.

Another point of difference here is that while Sundays are not used in calculating the 40 days of Lent in the West, Saturdays are not calculated in the East either, as there can be no fasting on Saturday (even though meat is not eaten on Lenten Saturdays).

This also brings up another difference for which Rome was actually condemned by a Council (I forget which one) for allowing fasting on Saturdays.

Fasting can only be allowed on Holy Saturday alone in the year.

Alex

Alex,

But the Gregorian Paschalion does not truly break the rule of Nicea. The Jews have changed the way they calculate Passover and could do so again possibly making the Orthodox Paschalion in violation of Nicea. Nicea's concern was with keeping the Quartodecimans from celebrating Pashca on 14 Nisan not binding the Church to Jewish calculations which no longer coincide with how Our Lord calculated Passover. I agree everyone should celebrate Pascha on the same date and the WCC proposed a good soultion but some Orthodox Churches resist the idea so none of them can move forward on it.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. Deacon Lance,

Just out of curiosity, does the Gregorian calculation of Easter cause Easter to, on occasion, fall before Passover as Our Lord calculated it?

The calendar issue within the Orthodox Church is an issue for the Orthodox Church and not the WCC, of which many Orthodox jurisdictions are not members. Any propositions by that particular body concerning matters determined by ecumenical council and practiced continuously within the Church will likely take their rightful place in the circular file.

There are no surviving texts of the Canons of Nicea I. The letter from the Emperor announcing the results of the Council does survive. As do a texts commenting on the canons. The letter - linked here numerous times - makes it clear that the idea was not only not to celebrate on the Jewish Passover, but to make the calculation independent of the Jews - who were also, about that time revising their method of calculation Passover (see below).

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-28.htm#

IIRC the idea that Pascha should not be celebrated before Passover is an much later innovation: it did not emerge until nearly a millenium ater Nicea.

There is a nice that I've linked to before on the calculation of Passover in ancient times. The Hebrew calendar was a lunar calendar. In order to keep in synch with the seasons a leap month was added every few years (like the Chiese lunar calendar). In ancient times this was done on an ad hoc basis. The chief priests would inspect the fields and discern whther or not the first fruits would be ready for Passover. If they felt that the fruits would not be ready, the leap month was "called" (congate of calendar). After the dispersion fo the Jewish communities, it was necessary to agree on a fixed calculation.

Given the ad hoc nature of the calendar prior to the fixed calculation, one could not say, until the Jews had specificed their calendar for the year, whether or not Pascha preceded it. (Hence the Emperor's remark above.)

Thank you Deacon Lance. I do believe that was the jist of what one of our Bishops was telling us in his homily at my Church one Sunday.

Yours in Christ,
Alice

Dear Friends,

Ignore the paper pushers and celebrate both Western and Eastern Easter + the 50 days following each. (including Sundays!)

Party on dude and dudettes!!

"The joy of the resurection renews the whole world." --The Roman liturgy

Paul

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

However, there have been times when the Gregorian Easter has broken the canon of the First Ecumenical Council.

This is one reason why there are Orthodox Churches that resist the Gregorian calendar, irrespective of how the Jews now calculate their Passover.

And I would disagree (respectfully of course) with your point on the Quartodecimans.

The 14th of Nisan was condemned, but the Church stopped short of condemning great Saints who had been Quartodecimans (Pope St Victor was appealed to by St Irenaeus of Lyons and others in this respect).

This had more to do with the desire of the Church to ensure that Easter would always be celebrated on a Sunday.

However, that's all water under the bridge.

The point is that there is NO reason why the West cannot observe the Orthodox Paschal date today.

This issue, as others, is tied to the age-old one concerning authority in the Church "Pope or Council?"

The East opposed the Gregorian calendar because it was issued by a Pope outside of a council and on the basis of secular science.

Yes, the Gregorian calendar was more correct on the basis of secular science than the Julian - but that reasoning drove the Eastern Churches bananas and we can talk about that.

And I understand that there are scientists today who do use the Julian Calendar for specific calculations.

In addition, I understand that not everyone in the West, including Catholics, were all that thrilled with the calendar change and that this took time to enforce.

In short, the West can give a little to the East in this respect.

The arguments that djs advances about the survival of documents are entirely unconvincing and they would be unconvincing to the Eastern Churches as well.

Alex

I don't make this stuff up. None of the ideas that I presented is from original research. And none is unorthodox. All of them are are drawn from Orthodox sources - bishops and scholars.

http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/ossorguine-pascha.html
http://www.otsamerica.org/news.html
http://www.jacwell.org/Archbishop%20Peter/The_Date_of_Pascha_and_the_Council_of_Nicea.htm
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7050.asp
http://www.scoba.us/resources/aleppo.asp

What can be said, then, is that claim that the Western calculation sometimes violates the canons of Nicea by placing Pascha before Passover is at best tendentious. It requires an interpretation of "not with the Jews" that is simply not accepted by a significant, responsible group of Orthodox. A doctrinaire statement such as:
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/easterdate2.htm at least should be posted with a warning that the stated claim is not as clear-cut as it is written; it would be disputed by numerous Orthodox Bishops and scholars.

And it is more than a little ironic, when old calendarists make this charge of a canonical violation - inasmuch as they routinely violate the "vernal equinox" ( as it is understood by the cited Orthodox sources) part of the Nicean agreement.