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Originally posted by iconophile: Todd, as you must know, there are many theological schools within Islam. Christianity also has its radical predestinationists. Most scholars think Muhammad was influenced by both Jewish and Christian sources, including a hermit who prophesied about him... The Catholic Church teaches that Islam worships the God of Abraham. That is good enough for me. -Daniel Daniel, I am aware of the different schools in Sunni Islam, but all of the Sunni schools of theology and jurisprudence teach absolute predestination. Islam is a false religion, and Mohammad is not a prophet. Moreover, Mohammad like Mani misunderstood the nature of God as creator, and so Islam's views about God are incompatible with Catholic doctrine. Mani, because he saw evil as a created essence, erred by positing a dualistic system in order to protect God from any connection with evil; while Mohammad erred by seeing evil as a substantial reality created by God Himself. Both views are repugnant to a Christian, and cannot be reconciled to the truth revealed by the eternal Logos made man. Blessings to you, Todd
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Once again I'm with Todd
"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
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Once again I'm with the Holy See. To misunderstand the nature of God or of evil does not mean one is not worshiping the One God. Do you think Calvinists worship another god? -Daniel
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Dear Father Anthony, Danish ham and butter cookies! I'm ashamed I didn't think of that myself! But I shall partake of these delights with joy and gladness - just think; there's no fasting next week!
Incognitus
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Originally posted by iconophile: Once again I'm with the Holy See. To misunderstand the nature of God or of evil does not mean one is not worshiping the One God. Do you think Calvinists worship another god? -Daniel Daniel, Determining who it is that Muslims worship is outside the purview of the Magisterium's judgment. The Magisterium can only definitively teach on matters of faith and morals. Thus, the question about who Muslims worship remains one of debate among Catholics; a debate that should be founded upon historical research and upon the theological texts of the religion in question. That being said, I stand by my position that Islam is a false religion, and that Mohammad is not a prophet. So far you have given no evidence to show that what you say is true. Please re-read my essay on determinism in Islam, because if that is what you believe, then your faith and the "faith" of a Muslim is the same, but I reject entirely the validity of the Islamic religion and it authoritative texts. Blessings to you, Todd
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Originally posted by Apotheoun: Originally posted by iconophile: [b] Once again I'm with the Holy See. To misunderstand the nature of God or of evil does not mean one is not worshiping the One God. Do you think Calvinists worship another god? -Daniel Daniel,
Determining who it is that Muslims worship is outside the purview of the Magisterium's judgment. The Magisterium can only definitively teach on matters of faith and morals.
Thus, the question about who Muslims worship remains one of debate among Catholics; a debate that should be founded upon historical research and upon the theological texts of the religion in question.
That being said, I stand by my position that Islam is a false religion, and that Mohammad is not a prophet. So far you have given no evidence to show that what you say is true. Please re-read my essay on determinism in Islam, because if that is what you believe, then your faith and the "faith" of a Muslim is the same, but I reject entirely the validity of the Islamic religion and it authoritative texts.
Blessings to you, Todd [/b]May be this will enlighten Daniel and Todd (actually all of us), with what the Church's postion is vis-a-vis non-Christian relgions: I recently wrote to the bishops of Asia: "Although the Church gladly acknowledges whatever is true and holy in the religious traditions of Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam as a reflection of that truth which enlightens all people, this does not lessen her duty and resolve to proclaim without fail Jesus Christ who is 'the way, and the truth and the life.'...The fact that the followers of other religions can receive God's grace and be saved by Christ apart from the ordinary means which he has established does not thereby cancel the call to faith and baptism which God wills for all people." Indeed Christ himself "while expressly insisting on the need for faith and baptism, at the same time confirmed the need for the Church , into which people enter through Baptism as through a door." Dialogue should be conducted and implemented with the conviction that the Church is the ordinary means of salvation and that she alone possesses the fullness of the means of salvation. (emphases in the original) from John Paul II, Encyclical Redemptoris missio , n. 55.
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Todd- You didn't answer my question: do Calvinists worship a different god?
Obviously I am not a Muslim. Nice try at confusing the subject.
Saying that Muslims worship the God of Abraham does not mean they understand His nature or do not need evangelization. But evangelization begins with affirmation of what truth already exists. Just think, in evangelizing a Muslim unlike, say, an Episcopalian bishop, you don't have to convince him of the Virgin Birth! Among other things.
And the Magisterium certainly does have the right and the authority to pronounce on other faiths and what they do and do not hold in common with Catholicism. -Daniel
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Does anyone know where the Islamic prayer ritual came from. I have seen mentioned somewhere that in the the Church of the East that forming up in lines all facing forward is their custom and may have been the custom that was more common among the Christians in the early centuries. I often thought of this when we were doing 'ecclesial aerobics' in Church during the great Lent in the Russian Church I used to go to. I never did so many prostrations in my life.
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Originally posted by iconophile: Todd- You didn't answer my question: do Calvinists worship a different god?
Obviously I am not a Muslim. Nice try at confusing the subject.
Saying that Muslims worship the God of Abraham does not mean they understand His nature or do not need evangelization. But evangelization begins with affirmation of what truth already exists. Just think, in evangelizing a Muslim unlike, say, an Episcopalian bishop, you don't have to convince him of the Virgin Birth! Among other things.
And the Magisterium certainly does have the right and the authority to pronounce on other faiths and what they do and do not hold in common with Catholicism. -Daniel Let me beginning by pointing out that Calvinism is a heresy. Nevertheless, it is not a teaching of Calvin, or any other Calvinist that I know of, that God is the creator of evil. The Calvinist theological position on predestination is not compatible with Catholic doctrine (either Eastern or Western), but Calvinists has never positively claimed that God is the creator of evil as Islamic theology teaches. I have now answered your question, but you continue to evade responding to what I have said about Islamic teaching. I have studied Islamic theology, and so I am familiar with the teachings of the major schools within Sunni Islam, but so far you have given no support for your contention other than that it is your opinion. As far as the Magisterium is concerned, as I said before, it has no authority whatsoever to determine who is worshipped by the members of another religion. Thus, it cannot make a definitive pronouncement upon who it is that Muslim's worship. Certainly, the Pope and the bishops of the Church can express their opinion on this matter, but no Catholic is required to agree with them. The Magisterium is limited to teaching what is contained in the depositum fidei, and to those things of the moral order that are logically or historically connected to divine revelation. Thus, I reiterate what I have said before: The Islamic religion is false, and Mohammad is not a prophet. Until you respond to my essay, I think our conversation is at an end. Blessings to you, Todd
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Dear Bob,
My first reaction to the article was, do the Christians in that 'volatile' part of the world, 'dare' do differently?
If I believed they were a 'free' people, and were able to 'freely' express their opinion, then I would say 'Bravo'! Knowing though that they are not, makes their stance irrelevant.
Zenovia
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Dear Pavel you said:
"Does anyone know where the Islamic prayer ritual came from. I have seen mentioned somewhere that in the the Church of the East that forming up in lines all facing forward is their custom and may have been the custom that was more common among the Christians in the early centuries."
I say:
I believe the Muslims must face Mecca when they pray. Well my grandmother told me that I must always face 'east' when I pray. Not that I do, but that's neither here nor there.
Well I recall reading once how a crusader saw a Muslim facing Mecca, and lifted him and faced him east. The Muslim turned once more towards Mecca, and the crusader lifted him again and had him face east. I don't know what the end result was, but I have to assume the crusader won.
Well until reading that, I had always assumed that it was only us 'Orthodox' that faced east. How silly! Then where would the Catholics face...west?
Zenovia
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Dear Pavel you said:
"Does anyone know where the Islamic prayer ritual came from. I have seen mentioned somewhere that in the the Church of the East that forming up in lines all facing forward is their custom and may have been the custom that was more common among the Christians in the early centuries."
I say:
I believe the Muslims must face Mecca when they pray. Well my grandmother told me that I must always face 'east' when I pray. Not that I do, but that's neither here nor there.
Well I recall reading once how a crusader saw a Muslim facing Mecca, and lifted him and faced him east. The Muslim turned once more towards Mecca, and the crusader lifted him again and had him face east. I don't know what the end result was, but I have to assume the crusader won.
Well until reading that, I had always assumed that it was only us 'Orthodox' that faced east. How silly! Then where would the Catholics face...west?
Zenovia
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