www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Metropolitan-Archbishop Stefan of Philadelphia

Maybe we have identified the problem in America! The Nuncio (Vatican Ambassodor to the USA)has shown himself to be insensitive to, and uncomprehending of, the sensitivities of Eastern Christians. He has shown his hand.

Maybe the American Nuncio is the obstacle to progress and renewal in the Eastern Catholic Churches?

Am I wrong?

Christian

[This message has been edited by Christian (edited 03-01-2001).]

Because, ...I have to believe the Pope himself, who wants our Church to renew itself. It is his 'functionaries' and endless secretaries and officials who haven't a clue. The Holy Father, Pope of Rome is one thing, Many Years! But these Papal minions should have no say in the government of the Eastern Churches.

Christian

"Not only did the Metropolitan not want to have a Divine Liturgy ceremony, he asked that the installation be moved to a Sunday, or be conducted during a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. The Apostolic Nuncio refused this request and insisted that it be done as scheduled."


Could we have a source for this?

The real enemy is us. We can bitch and moan about getting the shaft from a nuncio or someone else, but ultimately the blame is with us. True renewal starts in the human heart one at a time.

As Eastern Catholics, maybe we're worrying too much about our "sensitivities" and not enough about living our faith both in Church and in our personal lives. It is possible that if we did a better job living our faith in our daily lives that others would be attracted to the lifestyle and join with us.

Obviously if our numbers were greater, more Roman Catholics would know of our traditions and customs and not unintentionally insult us.

And as for our Orthodox brothers who complain about the Catholic Church, I will continue to pray for them to "come home" and therefore add great numbers to our flock and help establish a truly strong Eastern Catholic presence here in the United States and the world. (Boy is that a long sentence!!!)

Brother Eric's post seems to be on target. The fact remains: the Byzantine community has to do what it has to do. The essence is: we Constantinopolitan Christians recognize where our family is. Just ignore the craziness that is presented to us from the Roman bureaucrats, but respectfully of course. (It's sort of like the the psychiatric diagnosis of 'passive-agressive'. Tell 'em: "Oh yeah, of course, no problem" and then do what is necessary. We just have to make sure that we support our bishops in doing what is right.

As for the 'come home' part, Eric, we recognize our family. Let's just do what we need to do, and let the legalism drown in its own juices. The community of the baptized constitutes the Church. And we know who the baptized are.

Blessings, y'all!!

Dr John gave a good answer, coming from someone with deep Orthodox roots.

And as for our Orthodox brothers who complain about the Catholic Church, I will continue to pray for them to "come home" and therefore add great numbers to our flock and help establish a truly strong Eastern Catholic presence here in the United States and the world. (Boy is that a long sentence!!!)

Whoo boy, where does one begin with this? First of all, the policy of �Uniatism� (Catholics soliciting conversions from the Orthodox) has been dropped, at least semi-officially. See my website with its Catholic and Orthodox Q&A page linked to my Orthodox page for a link to the actual document from Balamand.

Every Byzantine Catholic with whom I am now personally acquainted (granted, they are virutually all converts) rejects as obviously ridiculous and wrongheaded the notion that their small Churches, rump or splinter groups created a few centuries ago at the Orthodox� expense for the old �Uniate� mission, are meant to replace the Orthodox Churches as individual Orthodox are cajoled into �coming home�.

Catholicism holds that there is only one true universal Church, but like the Orthodox holds this Church is composed of apostolic Churches. Further, it holds that the Orthodox are among these apostolic Churches. While the universal Church has no sisters, the Orthodox are seen as sisters to the Roman and other Catholic Churches. One does not hurt a sister Church with whom one is trying to reconcile. Hence Balamand.

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

"And as for our Orthodox brothers who complain about the Catholic Church, I will continue to pray for them to "come home""

Hmmmm.

I honestly don't believe that this is the view of the Catholic Church, Erik. Serge has explained well the current approach of Catholicism to Orthodoxy (based on the recent CDF pronouncements in late 2000) -- and it's not "come home".

We pray, instead, for unity -- that we may all be one again. In our parish, we have a petition in the fervent litany that there may be "an end to all schisms and jurisdictional divisions, that we may be more perfectly one". That's the ecumenical spirit -- unity, not "y'all ought to join the *right* team".

I think that your comment, however, points to the continued danger of the Eastern Catholic Churches, and why the Orthodox continue to be wary of them. There will always be Orthodox who see the Eastern Catholic Churches as a proselytization tool. Although this is no longer accurate (and, in practice, it's ironic but probably the case that a good many Orthodox converts are in Orthodoxy now precisely because they experienced Eastern Christianity in the Eastern Catholic Churches), every time that kind of comment comes from an Eastern Catholic, it brings up that image again.

Brendan

No, as Dr. John affirmed, we Catholics believes the Unviersal Church is composed of all the baptized.

A careful reading of Balamand does not preclude a Catholic call for all Christians to join the corporal unity of the Church through the ministry of the Universal Pastor, but suggests to the Orthodox, this call should be directed communally rather than individually.

Thanks, Brendan.

Kurt, the more I see your posts, the more I wish byzcath.org had a filter option. Your mixture of condescending liberalism and condescending old-fashioned Uniatism (with its saccharine rhetoric about �the Universal Pastor�) is nauseating. No Byzantine Catholic I respect talks like that.

No, as Dr. John affirmed, we Catholics believes the Unviersal Church is composed of all the baptized.

There is no contradiction between this and what I wrote, because according to Catholicism, those born into the Protestant heresies (but they are not called heretics) are members manqu� of the apostolic Churches. Their sincere groupings are treated with some respect, though they are objectively wrong, but they are not Churches (note the capital C).

A careful reading of Balamand does not preclude a Catholic call for all Christians to join the corporal unity of the Church through the ministry of the Universal Pastor, but suggests to the Orthodox, this call should be directed communally rather than individually.

You have a point that Catholicism still accepts such conversions (though it should do so quietly) but it no longer seeks them. The actions of the Roman Catholic authorities in Russia in this regard are commendable. (As is the work of Aid to the Church in Need, a Roman group that pays for Orthodox priests� education and builds churches for the Orthodox.) They are bending over backwards to assure the Church in Russia � the Orthodox Catholics under Patriarch Alexis II � that they are not using Uniatism to steal their people.

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 03-02-2001).]

Erik, we are home.

...more Roman Catholics would know of our traditions I will continue to pray for them to "come home" ...

JoeS

Dear All,

Ive been following this thread and it occurs to me that home is in the heart and soul and being of a person. If our being has been baptised it is part of the Body of Christ. Whether we belong to the head or hand or foot is not the essential thing. Being at home as part of the Body is.

He leads where He wills and we should recognize that He is leading us all Orthodox, Byzantine, Oriental and Latin Catholics to be who we are at this moment. Perhaps that is what we need to concentrate on: what He is doing not what we so shamefully have made of His Gifts. Isn't it ironic when groups of people following football teams sing "We Are Family" and mean it, while those who follow Jesus argue about who's home and who's not?

Go figure.

Joy!

It would seem to me that the term 'Universal Pastor' is so mild and vague in describing the ministry to Eastern Catholics by the person in the office currently held by Dr. Wojtyla, that objections would only come from the ultramontane side. (and I have asked for alternative terms, receiving no responses). If the opposite side has objections, it I am lead to wonder that they deny the legitimacy of any minsitry to Eastern Catholics being attributed to him and that such individuals, when Orthodox, are not truly interested in ecumencial dialogue with Catholics, but in "boring from within". If that is your objective, you should not be surprised you read contrary views when you are a guest in a Catholic forum.


You might try expanding your circle of Catholic friends

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 03-04-2001).]

K.,

You�ve done nothing to alter my opinion.

The people I know personally and respect here, including several Byzantine Catholics, know I am not Catholic-bashing.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 03-02-2001).]

Alternative Term for "universal pastor":

First Pastor.

anastasios