www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Just war, pacifists, suicide bombers, and terrorists

Dear friends,

I had a discussion with a Greek Orthodox fellow today, who was lamenting the "war-mongering" of the Bush administration and many protestant/ evangelical groups. He confirmed the Orthodox as lovers of peace. He also attributed that quality to Catholics.

I am searching here for insights into this subject area. Most posters here are reasonable, faith-directed searchers for Truth. I am having trouble with this issue.

We have a division of society in America into what I will term the "Just-War Group" (JWG) and the Pacificsts. This is a great over-simplification, and much grey area exists. But for a minute, please humor me.

One side is characterized by the belief that we are to keep peace with all people. They would radically reduce military spending, never drop bombs, have bumper stickers which read "Who Would Jesus Bomb?", and want us to open our sights to the idea that America in some way encourages terrorism by being so rich and materialistic.

The other side laments the violence of terrorism and tyrants who commit enormous atrocities against their own people. They want a free and just society for all nations. They firmly believe democracy is the only answer. They also spend billions on defense or "offense." They truly make great strides in liberating oppressed people, including women and children. They see this all as part of a just war.

In Iraq, we went in to free the country against the advice of Pope John Paul II. In my eyes, this fact alone bears enormous weight. The Church was in favor of diplomacy instead of war. However, many conservatives, Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant, saw this war as a moral duty to free a tyrannized people, and to combat terrorism in the world.

Now we have suicide bombers on the loose. We realize that, eventually, they will strike America. When this happens, a shout will go up for justice against terrorism. Another round of bombings will ensue somewhere else.

I am having great difficulty in sorting out what is true and right in all this. Of course, much grey area exists.

I am hoping for well-reasoned, thoughtful responses that show the usual depth of your thinking on this forum. I appreciate and respect those who post here and value your judgments immensely. But I'm trying sincerely to be apolitical and find a bit of truth to hold onto. With other moral issues, it is easier to see the wisdom and truth. With this issue, I find much muddy water, yet the decisions made by our government have a huge effect on the entire world. More importantly, the emotionalism that surrounds this issue clouds our view of God. We view him as entirely peaceful and loving, or we see him as a vengeful God, out to erase oppressors from the land.

How can we as God-seeking people, find our place in this?

How have you and your pastors and leaders come to terms with this problem?

Thank you for your thoughts, Tammy

I am certainly no anti-war peace activist. I have yet to be accused of being a liberal.

However, our stated reasons for invading Iraq, and our real reasons for invading Iraq, are not necessarily the same thing.

America's economic engine runs on the free flow of crude oil. Slow or stop the free flow of crude, and you collapse the American economy. It really is that simple.

The leftists in America will not permit us to explore our own oil reserves, to "protect the environment." Its far better to rape the landscape of some third world country than disturb the sterile wasteland of alaska, for instance.

The rightists are just fine with this. We've got plenty of strategic reserves of oil, natural gas, and coal here. Far better to diminish and exhaust the strategic reserves of some third world country than use up our own. Then, someday, when those nettlesome countries run out of crude, by gosh, WE"LL be in charge then.

Both sides agree that strategically and environmentally, its far better for us fat happy Americans to deplete third world countries' reserves and rape THEIR environments than to do the right thing and explore and use our own.

The greatest single threat to our free (CHEAP!) flow of third world crude right now is Islamic fundamentalism.

So strategically, the primary reason for being involved in the middle east AT ALL is to counteract Islamic fundamentalism and keep the oil flowing.

Otherwise, we would have no more interest in stopping the genocide of one ethnic group by another -- or by a despot -- in the middle east than we did, say, in Africa. You didn't see us intervening when over a half million blacks were killed, primarily by machete, during the Clinton administration, did you? Why not? No crude oil reserves (or strategic metal reserves) to protect.

So, we look at the map of the middle east, we look at global geopolitics, and we say to ourselves,

"Gee, which country could we annex as a forward military base there to fight back Islamic fundamentalism, and what great excuse could we come up with for doing such a damnable thing, just so us Americans can remain fat and happy based on the free flow of third world crude?"

Ah, Iraq looks good...tin pot despot we built last decade, decaying Soviet infrastructure, conveniently located in the fertile crescent between that nettlesome nest of vipers in Sadi arabia, and those towel headed jerks in Iran...

yeah, lets invade Iraq!

And, uh, lets blame it on...WMD!

Yeah, that's it!

Fight Islamic fundamentalism with decadent unbridled western capitalistic "democracy" and get cheap oil to boot.

And claim we're spreading freedom, democracy, and fighting terrorism too!

What an awesome ruse!

just to keep the west fat and happy on other peoples' oil.

Dear DocBrian,

If what you said is true, and the only real reason we went to war was to salvage our oil dependent economy, I assume that you were against the war. How do you feel about the secondary effect of this war which was still freeing the Iraqi people from torture, establishing democracy and education for women, etc.
Can this cause still be justified?

Looking for answers.

Peace in Christ, Tammy

Also, will it be justified, when we bomb some other Arab occupied place to smithereens after someone blows up a subway or hotel in the USA?

Does the answer change if the terrorists blow up an elementary school?

Or should we rightfully, turn the other cheek?

Tammy

Turning a double post into a response....

I wouldn't look at it in terms of the mere appearances of the action, but in terms of intent.

First, the suicide bomber and his masters want to establish their idea an Islamic caliphate over the entire world, US included. That of course isn't realistic, but it does concern us as far as they are willing to use suicide bombs on people in our country. In many cases they target civilians because they are the most prone to fear and are the least defended.

The US may only bomb an area when doing so is necessary for the effective fighting of its (in this case radical Islamist) enemy. It MUST NOT intentionally target noncombatants, and though "collateral damage" will unforunately always happen, this is only because of our imperfections, and MUST be minimized as much as possible.

SSV-

I would never characterize Orthodox nations as necesarily peaceful nations. The proper nouns "Justinian, Heraklios, megali idea " should ring a bell with your Greek friend. If your friend starts talking about how they were justified, well then s/he's just put him/herself into the just war camp. There's no way for a Christian who accepts and is honest about history to say that Christianity absolutely forbids war.

I'm not really in a position to ansewr your broader questions, and I don't even want to touch the political ones. Allow me to recommend some reading:

Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 2263-2265 and 2302-2317

George Weigel, Tranquilitas Ordinis . You'll probably have to buy this one used on Amazon. He's also written some articles on Just War for First Things (www.firstthings.com [firstthings.com]).

Father Alexander Webster (OCA), The Virtue of War . His book The Pacifist Option: The Moral Argument Against War in Eastern Orthodox Theology is also an excellent discussion of Orthodox pacifism, but it's a bit expensive.

Of course, some will just dismiss Weigel as a Bush-loving neocon and Fr. Webster as a chaplain who's sold out to the military industrial complex.


Phrases like this are a pet peeve of mine. Please forgive me for taking the soapbox.

The US does spend $370.7 billion, or 3.3% of its GDP, on defense. During the height of the cold war, I recall it being around 1% of GDP more.

However, I would note the estimates of the same figures for, say, China hover at 10-20% of GDP
[ref: this report [defenselink.mil] ]. IIRC North Korea spends more than this number on defense, as did the Soviet Union.

Which is not to say we should necessarily spend more on defense. The point is that we really don't spend that much as a society.


Warfare or fighting in general (even defense of yourn family) is a definite burden, but unfortunatley one you have to deal with to a greater or lesser extent depending on the time you live in. Unless you're called to be and live as a monk who's given up everything for the Kingdom of Heaven, you have to deal with the matters of the world.

My personal answer to your question? I like the following prayers:

1. From the Divine Liturgy: "For peace in the whole world, for the well-being of the holy Churches of God and for the union of all... For good weather, for an abundance of the fruits of the earth, and for peaceful times....."

2. Troparion of the Holy Cross: "Oh Lord save your people and bless your inheritance. Grant victory to our country * over its enemies, and preserve your community by the power of your cross"

* "country" I interpret to have multiple meanings, the US to some degree, but more broadly Christian peoples against all kinds of temporal and spiritual combat with the forces of evil.

3. Apolytikion of St. George: "Liberator of captives, defender of the poor, physician of the sick, and champion of kings, O trophy-bearer, Great Martyr George, intercede with Christ God that our souls be saved."

Marc

Dear Marc,

Thank you very much for your response. I plan to spend some time reflecting on some of the reading. Just wanted to let you know, I was purposefully trying to create characterizations of the types of arguments that are hurled about, usually among the reactionary types on both sides. I did not intend to be offensive, but to merely suggest the types of dialogue we might hear in the marketplace. These arguments frequently spark emotional reactions which are generally unbalanced. I have typically stood for a strong military, and many in my family have been in the military service. So I am not at all a peace-nik, though lately I find myself wondering if our military efforts are really justifiable. It is a difficult thing to sort out for a Catholic conscience.

By the way, this fellow I was speaking to referred to the writings of "Mother Jones." I have no idea what he is talking about. Anyway, I wish peace were more easily achieved in our world, and that every society had the freedoms and privileges we have here.

Whether we truly invaded Iraq for oil rather than justice I can only surmise.

Peace to you,

Tammy

Dear DocBrian,

You really DO believe in free speech!

My American Korean War veteran uncle would strongly disagree with what you've said here.

Which is one reason why I would be inclined to agree with you!

Yes, I have a problem with someone, relative or no, who feels he must punctuate a discussion on international relations and the U.S. to put his hand on his heart and sing the American national anthem!

Alex

Tammy,
Have you ever wondered why those who have never fought in a war are the ones who often make wars? If Bushie believes so much in this war, why aren't his daughters serving? Why didn't he serve in Vietnam? He is such a ___! Our offensive wars will stop when the children of our Senators, Presidents, and Congressmen have to serve in the front lines!
Thank You for your insight Doc Brian.

I've done medical missionary work in Haiti. Mother Theresa called Haiti's slums the "poorest in the world."

So I've seen some of the worst poverty any man can behold in this world.

And guess what? Its only 1 1/2 hour flight from the mainland USA. One can find similar levels of poverty not far from our borders in Texas.

There are diseases in Haiti that we eradicated in America decades ago, and only cost pennies to cure.

Yet in many third world countries, one can find clinics funded by western governments overflowing with contraceptives and abortion equipment, but few anti-biotics, anti-malarial meds, or simple pedialyte formula, to save their dying babies.

They need corn, we send them condoms. They need infrastructure and education, we send the sunction abortion devices.

They need a hand up. We give them international loans tied to population control quotas, loans that help the despots remain in control and assist us in profiteering from their strategic reserves.

Population control is demographic warfare. Its intended to keep the third world poor, indebted, and mired under their petty despots so that we can suck their strategic reserves dry without anyone putting up a struggle.

I love America, but I hate the foreign policies of some of its godless leaders. And we will eventually pay dearly for fighting this demographic war against the poor.

That is a continual theme in scripture. You don't kill the innocent and rob the poor without there being consequences.

Only the saints did the things they did out of pure motives, pure love of God.

The rest of us muddle through, and we all do things out of mixed motives. Sometimes our love of God and His children outweighs other motives.

Sometimes our self love or other vices are the primary motive.

No one but God knows what is in a man's heart, what a man's "true" motives might be.

So I readily admit we're walking on this ice in trying to discern the real motives in our invasion of Iraq.

It simply cannot be argued whether good has been accomplished. It has. The people of Iraq are free of a brutal, merciless dictator.

But the rest of the equation is known only to God. I think pope John Paul II saw some of the real motives more clearly than us and therefore resisted this war, and questioned whether it was, on the whole, a just war.

Actually, I'd be willing to bet that many of them are.

And a sizeable percentage of our Senators, Presidents and Congressmen have come from the ranks of the military as well: a certain General George Washington springs immediately to mind . . .

I also wanted to add to the above: we no longer have a draft in this country, so no one -- children of politicians or otherwise -- has to serve in the military AT ALL - whether on the front line or elsewhere. Thank God there are enough brave men -- and women -- who are willing to risk their lives to do so.

Dear DocBrian,

I believe what you said about our motives is key. None of us are totally pure of conscience, except perhaps a monastic somewhere on Mt. Athos who doesn't hear the daily news. Even less can we expect an entire nation to be so. What is more troubling is the very real problem of government coverups and lies. I am not pointing at anyone in particular. I just wonder how often we can trust our governments for the full truth. Even in democratic nations.

With all that in mind, we realize that our government leaders are charged with making life expending decisions. Perhaps JPII, may he rest in peace, had the right insights. So often, I believe we need to rely on the instincts of the mystics in these situations. They have tasted holy wisdom. Let us be open to the same.

Peace, Tammy

Dear Theist Gal,

God Bless our troops who often sacrifice all for our nation. I honor their service. May the Lord of all creation bless them with eternal peace.

Tammy