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Friends,

We met and had a delightful day with Highlander, aka Patrick Farris, in Easter Ross, Scotland. I have many interesting things to share but little time now. The most fascinating aspect of the visit, beside meeting Patrick and his wonderful priest are the information we gleaned at our visit at Tarbat. The 8-9th century Pictish dragon stone discovery and the information that this area was a thriving trading center eminating from the Hebrides (esp. Iona) makes me wonder if there is a connection between the Pictish dragons and the dragons of The Byzantine Empire.

CDL

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When you said highlander and dragons, I thought you meant Duncan MacLeod and his dragon head katana. Oh well. frown

Hope you find the info you are looking for! smile
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Dear CDL,

Years ago, while visiting some people on my mothers island of Chios, I was asked if I had ever heard the expression that 'you will never reach Scotland'.

It seems that according to legend, the people of a beautiful Genovese town called Pyrghi, were being transported to Scotland during the Roman era in order to populate it, but for some reason or other were returning. Of course at the time the Roman Empire consisted of all of Greece, Asia Minor, etc.

Well it seems after that, I kept hearing that the Greeks considered many Scots to be descended from the Greeks. Since then I noticed that the Scots do wear skirts. The Scots do play bagpipes. The Scots do roll their 'R's'. The Scots do a sort of swaying movement to music with their arms crossed in front of the people next to them, reminiscent of pictures of ancient Macedonians. That the Scots do a sword dance so similar to one on one of the Dodacanese islands, that I couldn't help but wonder if the English had been there. They hadn't! It belonged to Italy.

Just a few things! biggrin biggrin biggrin

Zenovia

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Dear CDL,

In Greek the name Scotland is Scotia which means 'dusk', or getting dark outside, would certainly relate to Scotland or Ireland. Also the name Iona seems to be Greek, as well as Hebrides. Caledonian also sounds Greek.

As for the expression that 'you will never get to Scotland', shouldn't be disregarded. I would never disregard sayings that have been passed down for centuries. I know that not far from where my mother lived as a child, there is a rock with carved seats. It has always been called 'dascalopetra', which means teacher's rock. The teacher was Homer. wink

Now originally the archiologists believed it was some sort of temple, but now realize that when something has been passed down, (and probably recorded), for centuries, there has to be some truth to it.

I would love some information on the Picts. There seems to be so little on them. confused

Zenovia

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I hope the Highlander chimes in. I'd guess that Father Serge may have some insights as well.

CDL

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Originally posted by Zenovia:


I would love some information on the Picts. There seems to be so little on them. confused

Zenovia
In Roman times the inhabitants of what later became England, Wales and Southern Scotland were inhabited by peoples known collectively as "Britons" and the area was called "Britannia".
Further north, beyond the Roman Wall of Antoninus lived another set of tribes. One of the most imortant was the Caledonii and the region was called "Caledonia". Tacitus relates a war against "the Caledonii and other Picti". The Caledonian leader, Calgacus was captured and taken to Rome to be executed in the Roman triumph. Tacitus credits Calgacus with a speech worthy of the noble savage, in which he says of the Romans "solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant" - "they create a desolation, and call that peace".

The Picts became Christian after missions by St Ninian (or Ringan) in the south and Columba (Colum Cille) in the north. From the 7th century, crosses engraved on flat stone slabs replaced the pre-christian symbol stones of the region. Like other "Celtic" crosses they are highly decorated with interlace, triskele and key-pattern carvings, similar to the Celtic style of manuscript decoration. From 710 the Pictish Church followed Northumbria in adopting Roman practice.

The Picts left no writings apart from a king-list. They were largely wiped out by the Vikings, and the remnants were absorbed by the Scots - incomers from Northern Ireland - in 842-3 when Kenneth mac Alpin King of Scots inherited the throne of Pictland through the maternal line.

Some experts believe that "Picti" is simply Latin. In that case it means "the Painted (people)". However Latin and Celtic are closely related, and the existence in Gaul (France) of a region of "Pictavia" (Poitou) suggests an actual Celtic root. Gaul had tribes of Pictavi and Pictones, which suggests the same origin. Also some Gaulish place-names are similar to Pictish ones. The river near my house is the Averon, and in France there is a river Aveyron, for example. Most experts now think that Pictish was a Celtic language distinct from both British (ie Welsh) and Gaelic.

I do hope this isn't boring. smile

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The "Pictish dragon" discovered at Tarbat was a design which has not survived on any of the numerous other Pictish stones either Christian or pre-Christian. There are some mythical beasts in the repertoire as well as very naturalistic representations of bulls, fish, birds, boars, wolves etc.

Restoration work in the 1990s on the old Church at Tarbat in the village of Portmahomack revealed the Dragon fragment, and other Pictish stones in the crypt walls. Excavation by a team from York University revealed a huge monastery site of the 1st millennium, as big as St Ninian's Whithorn in the Southwest or St Columba's Iona in the West. The very existence of the foundation had been forgotten by history after it was burnt down, surely by Vikings in the 10th Century, and the whole region became Norse for a long time.

A monastery was later founded by King David I some miles away and given to the Premonstratensian Canons. Clearly the site had already been forgotten.

Here's a link:
http://www.tarbat-discovery.co.uk/home.html

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Dear Highlander,

You are definitelly not boring me. I always wondered about the Picts. They've always been so mysterious. Darn! You've ruined the mystery.

Just joking! biggrin

Zenovia

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The last time I was in Greece a couple of years ago, I had a friend, who is interested in such things, relate to me the theory that the Scottish Mc (or Mac) prefix, especially in the case of Mc (or Mac)Donald, is a derivation from the word Makedonos (he who is from Macedonia). I thought that was quite interesting as the resemblence seems to be there.

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Originally posted by St. Gabriel:
The last time I was in Greece a couple of years ago, I had a friend, who is interested in such things, relate to me the theory that the Scottish Mc (or Mac) prefix, especially in the case of Mc (or Mac)Donald, is a derivation from the word Makedonos (he who is from Macedonia). I thought that was quite interesting as the resemblence seems to be there.
Regrettably, this is merely a piece of "folk etymology" with no basis in linguistic science.
Mac is in fact the ordinary word for "son" in Gaelic. In Irish, an older man will address a younger as "a mhic" (pronounced vic) ie "son".
Gaelic belongs to the Q-Celtic branch, and the P-Celtic equivalent is typified by Welsh "map" (= son). In personal names this appears as ap eg Hywel ap Gruffydd. this gives rise to anglicised forms like Pritchard (ap Richard) and Upjohn (ap John).
The mac prefix denoted a patronymic "son of" later used as a surname, and in English applied also to women instead of the correct "nic" as in Catriona nic Leoid = Catherine Macleod. Nic is an abbreviated form of "nighean mhic" - (daughter of the son) the of is in the last name in the genitive case, Gaelic being an inflected language. Macdonald is mac Dhomhnaill, Domhnaill being a personal name meaning "world ruler" and therefore the same as "Vladimir" or "Wolodymyr", though whether the two are connected is more than I can say.

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Patrick,

I'm indeed fascinated by your instruction. I'm learning even as an old dog. Could you elaborate on any links you do perceive between the Pict, Scot, or Nordic peoples and the peoples of Egypt, and the Eastern Roman Empire.

Carson

PS Please forgive my mistake of your last name. When I realized the error it was too late to correct it.

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Christianity came to these islands in the time of the Roman Empire and before c.400AD there were naturally many contacts with Continental Europe and the Middle East. These would have been by sea, via Spain and the Mediterranean. Archeology shows thriving importation of wine, for instance.

In Scotland Christianity arrived later. The first missionary is traditionally Ninian who founded Candida Casa at Whithorn. It is in the far Southwest, but with easy sea connections to Ireland, Man, Cumbria, Wales and Argyll. Inland was covered in thick forest, virtually impassable.

In the fourth century missions were sent to Ireland, notably under Palladius and then Patrick. Patrick was a Briton ie Welsh-speaking, possibly from what is now part of Scotland. He was captured by Irish pirates on the west coast. He escaped and went to Gaul where he spent time at the monastery of St Martin, at Tours on the Loire river. This was one of the first western monasteries, following the rise of monasticism in Egypt and Syria which remained the model and inspiration.

As a penance for being involved in warfare Colum Cille (St Columba) had to live beyond sight of Ireland. He and his followers settled on a small island called after him � Colum Cille (St Columba�s isle) on Latin maps this appeared as �Iona insula� � �the island of ͔ � � being a word meaning �island�. Colum Cille was a Gaelic speaker or �Scot� and he and his followers brought Christianity to the other �Scots� who had settled on the West coast of Alba (later called Scotland).

The Picts by this time were grouped in two confederations, and the southern Picts had been evangelised from Ninian�s foundation at Candida Casa (the White House). Columba went to Inverness where the Pictish king, Brude, gave him land for monasteries. Possibly including the site Carson saw at Tarbat.

Iona became the centre of an outpouring of missionary activity with the founding of many daughter-houses across Scotland and northern England, notably Lindisfarne and Whitby . This region was by now settled by Angles (from Engeln in N. Germany). Further south, however, the Germanic invaders were Saxons, who clung fiercely to their pagan traditions. Besides, the local Briton Christians resented the expropriation of their land and made no attempt to convert the invaders. The mission to the Angles came from Rome, from Pope St Gregory the Great.

There was never a �Celtic Church� as such. However early Christianity in Celtic lands (and including Northumbria) had certain recognisable shared features. Monasticism was central. It was also as extreme as the desert original. Prayer was non-stop and associated with prostrations and standing for hours with arms outstretched, cross-shaped. Fasting and abstinence were relentless. Even in the modern languages this can be seen. Eg in Scots Gaelic Friday is Di h-aoine (Fast Day) Wednesday is Di ciadaoin (first Fast) and Thursday is Di ardaoine (Day between the two Fasts).

The Liturgy varied from place to place, but contained elements of Eastern practice.

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Here�s a link on Celtic Liturgy: http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Liturgy_Of_Constantinople
Quote
Group V. The Hispano-Gallican Rite (St John).-This group of Latin liturgies, which once prevailed very widely in Western Europe, has been almost universally superseded by the liturgy of the Church of Rome. Where it survives, it has been more or less assimilated to the Roman pattern. It prevailed once throughout Spain, France, northern Italy, Great Britain and Ireland. The term "Ephesine" has been applied to this group or family of liturgies, chiefly by English liturgiologists, and the names of St John and of Ephesus, his place of residence, have been pressed into service in support of a theory of Ephesine origin, which, however, lacks proof and may now be regarded as. a discarded hypothesis. Other theories represent the Gallican to be a survival of the original Roman liturgy, or as an importation into Western Europe from the east through a Milanese channel. The latter is Duchesne's theory (Christian Worship, London, 1904, 2nd ed., p. 94).
We must be content with mentioning these theories without attempting to discuss them.
The chief traces of oriental influence and affinity lie in the following points: (1) various proclamations made by the deacon, including that of "Silentium facite" before the epistle (Migne, Pat. Lat. torn. lxxxv. col. 534); (2) the presence of a third lesson preceding the epistle, taken from the Old Testament; (3) the occasional presence of "preces" a series of short intercessions resembling the Greek "Ektene" or deacon's litany; (4) the position of the kiss of peace at an early point in the service, before the canon, instead of the Roman position after consecration; (5) the exclamation "Sancta sanctis" occurring in the Mozarabic rite, being the counterpart of the Eastern "Td i yea rois aylocs," that is "holy things to holy people"; (6) traces of the presence of the "Epiklesis," that is to say, the invocation of the Holy Spirit, in its Eastern position after the words of institution, as in the prayer styled the Post-pridie in the 1Vlozarabic service for the second Sunday after the octave of the Epiphany: "We beseech thee that thou wouldest sanctify this oblation with the permixture of thy Spirit, and conform it with full transformation into the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Migne, Pat. Lat. torn. lxxxv. col. 250). On the other hand the great variableness of its parts, and the immense number of its proper prefaces, ally it to the Western family of liturgies.
Liturgies of the British Islands. Period I. The Celtic Church. - Until recently almost nothing was known of the character of the liturgical service of the Celtic church which existed in these islands before the Anglo-Saxon Conquest, and continued to exist in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall for considerable though varying periods of time after that event. But in recent times a good deal of light has been thrown on the subject, partly by the publication or republication of the few genuine works of Patrick, Columba, Columbanus, Adamnan and other Celtic saints; partly by the discovery of liturgical remains in the Scottish Book of Deer and in the Irish Books of Dimma and Mulling and the Stowe Missal, &c.; partly by the publication of medieval Irish compilations, such as the Lebar Brecc, Liber Hymnorum, Martyrology of Ocngus, &c., which contain ecclesiastical kalendars, legends, treatises, &c., of considerable but very varying antiquity. The evidence collected from these sources is sufficient to prove that the liturgy of the Celtic church was of the Gallican type. In central England the churches, with everything belonging to them, were destroyed by the heathen invaders at the close of the 5th century; but the Celtic church in the remoter parts of England, as well as in the neighbouring kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland, retained its independence for centuries afterwards.
An examination of its few extant service-books and fragments of service-books yields the following evidence of the Gallican origin and character of the Celtic liturgy: (a) the presence of collects and anthems which occur in the Gallican or Mozarabic but not in the Roman liturgy; (b) various formulae of thanksgiving after communion; (c) frequent biddings or addresses to the people in the form of Gallican Praefationes; (d) the Gallican form of consecration, being a prayer called "PostSanctus" leading up to the words of institution; (e) the complicated rite of "fraction" or "the breaking of bread," as described in the Irish treatise at the end of the Stowe Missal, finds its only counterpart in the elaborate ceremonial of the Mozarabic church; (f) the presence of the Gallican ceremonial of Pedilavium or "Washing of feet" in the earliest Irish baptismal office.
For a further description of these and other features which are characteristic of or peculiar to the Celtic liturgy the reader is referred to F. E. Warren's Liturgy and Ritual of the Celtic Church (Oxford, 1881).
Unfortunately "Celtic" is a buzz-word for New-Age Nutters, so it is hard to find hard facts on the Internet relating to the actual historical realities.

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Absolutely fascinating, Highlander. Thank you very much.

Dr. Eric "O'Roche" wink

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I'm actually a relative of St. Columba (well, from the same family with documented and traceable lines of lineage - I don't know if you could say "relative" when over 1500 years have passed).

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