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Kurt writes:

[I appreciate your honest answer, which you find a polite way in saying he should have no ministry and that my Church should be liquidated. That certainly does settle the issue.]

Huh? Can you tell me where I'm advocating the liquidation of the Roman Catholic Church by recommending the Pope be called by his original title 'Patriarch of Rome'?
Quit trying to read into my response something that is not there.

Bob

Dear Friends,
Glory to Jesus Christ!

I was in a Church recently where the Priest commemorated the Pope as the Bishop of Rome, period.

Afterwards, I asked him why he called him that. He said, "because that is what he is."

My dilemma is that I understand where Serge is coming from and I also understand where Kurt is coming from.

We come full circle. I am an Orthodox-oriented Byzantine Catholic. But while we are in union with Rome, do we not accept the Primacy of Honour AND of Jurisdiction of the Pope, including his nine titles?

If we don't, then we are not "in union with Rome," n'est ce pas?

Yes, it is the Great and Holy Fast. Yes, our tradition calls the Pope the Ecumenical Pontiff and the Pope of Rome in the Liturgy.

But I see different people use different titles for the Pope who may wish, in so doing, to underscore their particular form of loyalty to him.

Then, what is wrong with Kurt using the title he did? I wouldn't use it, but why can't he?

Your loving friend,

Alex

Robert,

Follow along. The question is for a proper title expressing the minstry of Dr. Wojtyla to Eastern Catholics. Patriarch of Rome expresses his minsitry to the Roman Patriarchate. So you are either saying Easter Catholics like myself are part of the Roman Patriarchate or that he has no ministry to us (i.e. we don't exist - liquidation).

I appreciate Alex's insights on this. Ecumencial Pontiff might be a useful subsitute for Unviersal Pastor (though I would prefer emphazing his pastoral role rather than his jurisdictional as in Pontiff). This title does have liturgical use however. Pope of Rome is a fine title, but it really doesn't describe his relationship to us ("us" meaning Eastern CATHOLICS).

K.

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 03-05-2001).]

To all:

I am sure when we show up for Judgement Day, our Lord will have names for us all - and they won't be pretty. This is all a bunch of cr-p!

As for the new Ukrainian bishop who studied "stress" on clergy and his installation day, he seems to toe the line with the Roman bishops. Nothing new here. Whaddya expect? Orthodox in communion with Rome? My research shows that married priests have longer life-spans. And I don't have a doctorate! His social-worker explanation on the harried and less effective married clergy was the typical Roman Catholic excuse given back in me Roman seminary days.

Joe,
perplexed by the seemingly foolishness of the sickness of religion and the wasted time spent on titles, designs of clerical roles (lace or silk?), and the search for an identity which no one respects.

My brother and sister went to the installation ceremony. Saturday I talked with my sister about it. It was in both English and Ukrainian, with the Gospel and the Communion Creed in both. She said that the Epistle, Creed, and Consecration were in English. And our leader, Major Archbishop and Patriarch Lubomyr was there in his black robes. Also, to answer Robert's earlier question (and I apologize for not replying sooner) in the prayers at the Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian at our churches we do pray for Patriarch Lubomyr. (We don't go to the English language service because of the time, not because I'm some ethnic nut. Pass the pyrohy, and DON'T run out of the onions!! )

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kurt:
[B]Robert,

"Follow along. The question is for a proper title expressing the minstry of Dr. Wojtyla to Eastern Catholics. Patriarch of Rome expresses his minsitry to the Roman Patriarchate. So you are either saying Easter Catholics like myself are part of the Roman Patriarchate or that he has no ministry to us (i.e. we don't exist - liquidation)."

No. It is not a question of "we don't exist" if he is the Patriarch of Rome.
He is the head of the Romans and the Primus Imperatatus (did I spell that right? ).
He should have no juristiction in our Church, nor should any Latin Nuncio. Patriarch Lybomyr should have installed Bishop Soroka as the Pope of our Church. If anything, the Nuncio should have been there to symbolize our Union.

"In Union With" does not equal "Under the Yoke of" . It simply means that we share a common doctrine,and basic faith and the recognition of each other's Seven Sacraments.
The Vicar of Peter, not the Vicar of Christ, Christ is His own Vicar, has an honorary role among the other four Patriarch's and other Bishops. He is kind of of like the Vice President in the Senate. A tie breaking vote. When Matters of faith and doctrine cannot be resolved. the question MAY be refferred to the Vicar of Peter in honor of his faith(aka Rock). It is a Privelidge entrusted to Him to settle tough issues.

What the Pope is now is not what the Pope was, or should be. Think about it for a second. Who will be the Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven? He never gave the answer.
And if the greatest are the Least how can an earthly-like, King-type, Univeral Vicar of Christ, Pope fit that job Description?

Orthodox Brothers, have I correctly put forth the Orthodox teaching, albiet in a very personally flavored way? ))

Ok, Now for what will surley enflame those who do not suscribe to my point of view.

I think the Pope wants us (Eastern Catholics) to be completely autonomous,flourishing, and free from Rome's juristiction, so that the Orthodox will see that Union is desirable and reunification of the the Five Patriarchs, plus two or three new ones, will become a reality. Why? because Christendom is not well. Another Schism is coming between the Liberal and Conservative factions in the Roman Catholic Church, and consequently Western Christendom will be further disjointed.

Any studied Christian, or non-christian, knows that the Church came from the East, and more importatnly, the REAL TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE PATRIARCHAL CHURCH OF JERUSALEM, ANTIOCH, ROME, ALEXANDRIA, AND CONSTANTINOPLE.

The only way we can save Christianity from the heresies which are free to speak and preach in culturally relative societies and
governments, is when the TRUE CHURCH, THE COMPLETEY WHOLE CHURCH, speaks unanimously and assertively through the 100% UNSUBTRACTED TRUE MAGESTERIUM OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, not the partial magesterium of the Roman, or Russian, or Greek Church, but the Magesterium that gave us the first Seven Ecumenical Councils.
(Food for Thought: How many of the same issues prevalent now, are nothing more than recycled heresies from the first millenia?)

I think John Paul II is a brilliant man and he knows what is spiritually happening amongst us and he knows the only possible way out is the Church. THE ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

whether orthodox or cathlic, you're either on the bus, or your off.

We need the CATHOLIC CHURCH, in other words, we need JESUS CHRIST fully in our midst.
To be sure Christ is present in this world.
But He has not manifested His full saving glory on the Earth for 1,000 years because his Bridegroom has forsaken Him and become an Adultress!

This is my opinion.
Perhaps my slavic soul speaking to me.
I am a sinner and not worthy of Heaven
Please pray for me,
Molyty

You write:

[Patriarch Lybomyr should have installed Bishop Soroka as the Pope of our Church.]

Who is Patrairch Lybomyr? I thought the Pope refused the title of 'Patriarch' to the new UCC Metropolitan. And why would you address Bishop Soraka as 'Pope' when his is a diocesean Bishop, rather than a leader of an autocephalous church?

I must say that your post confuses me as an Orthodox Catholic. It seems very contradictory. Do you really share the same doctrine as the RCC? If so, then why is there so much dialogue and disagreement amongst you in here and elsewhere about Papal Infallibility, Papal Supremacy, Fillioque, the IM, etc?
And if you share the same doctrine with the RCC, why do you all get so insulted when you are identified as being part of her? A church is idetified by it's doctrine and beliefs.
And if you are just 'in union with' rather than 'under the authority of' her why do you bow down to, and comply with her every directive? There's an old and wise saying which goes...'If you make yourself a doormat then don't blame people for stepping on you.'
Guess we just come from two different mind sets.

Glory to Jesus Christ Robert!!!

OOOPPSS !

Sorry everyone.

I confused Soroka for Husar and never realized it while trying to make a little pun, i.e. Pope of our Church.

I even missed it in your reply, Robert, and in my reply to yours as well.

Humbly, an unobservant, confounding sinner.
Molyty
It was a play on words.

Molyty:

In all honesty, I am unable to reply to your response to me. Because I have read it over countless times and am more confused by it each time I read it. Therefore cannot figure out what to respond to.
In fact, I sent it to one of my Godsons who is an ex Roman Catholic who converted to Orthodoxy two years ago. I thought that coming from a Roman Catholic background he could explain it to me. His reaction was the same as mine...total confusion.
He did however, ask two questions which I think is the only way I can respond to you -

1) Why so many hoops to jump thru?
2) And why is Rome holding all the hoops if
they are so independent?

Bob

[QUOTE}


1) Why so many hoops to jump thru?
2) And why is Rome holding all the hoops if
they are so independent?


[/Quote]

Hoops? We have been repressed from Rome for 400 years and just in the last 50 years has there been a process to emancipate ourselves.
You don't think their any legal complications to it? We have not run ourselves for a long time, so since we still exist someone must, and there systems in place with which people run our church that need to be undone. If you want details, I can't give them to you.

You'll probably ask why are we still in union with Rome? Well the political structure is one. Past bishops were appointed by Rome due to their Loyalty in Rome. (It's kind of like the Greeks who sold out there own people for political reasons to the Ottomans). Therefore, the synod would never dissolve the Union.

The point is, and I think you are trying to convey this to all of us on the forum, is that WE ARE NOT INDEPENDANT. NOW ROME WANTS US TO BE AND WE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO BE OURSELVES.

Why does Rome, all of a sudden want us to be ourselves/independant/orthodox/autocephalous?
Re-read my thread, THE ENTIRE THREAD, to the end. Please don't focus on how my church is ecclesiologically unclear. But read down to the end. And ask yourself whether you are on the Bus or off the Bus.

You Write:

[But read down to the end. And ask yourself whether you are on the Bus or off the Bus.]

That depends on -

1) Who the bus really belongs to
2) What cost it will be to me
3) Where the bus is heading
4) And who is driving the bus

Bob

Dear Bob,

1) The bus belongs to me.

And to the faithful departed, the faithful present, the faithful yet to be born, and to YOU, if you would like.

2) The cost is nothing - it is a free gift.

3) The Communion of Saints.

4) The Holy Spirit.

Please forgive my uncontrollable impishness. There is much penance required to get me on the bus.

Have a Holy and Blessed Lent

John

Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Bob-

It is the Bus of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINING.

Molyty.

Moloty writes:

[It is the Bus of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINING.]

Based on the last two posts, then I am already on the right bus. The original bus built by God of light weight indistructable alloy and unbreakable parts. Designed to run independently forever with out breaking down.

As opposed to an imitation look alike specifically manufactured by a foreign earthly power of plastic & breakable parts and designed so that it can never really run independently without depending on this foreign manufacturer for replacement parts.