www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Jihad vs Pornocracy?

In all the recent discussion about the American atrocities against Iraqi prisoners I have not seen one aspect of the scandal addressed [and I am not holding my breath]. To whit: could such a thing have occured outside a culture that is saturated in pornography? Would American women of the 1940s, for example, have even dreamed of participating in the sexual humiliation of prisoners?
I think I have seen one story in the news about how pornography -illegal under Hussein- is now flooding the Iraqi marketplace. Apostate Jew Howard Stern has proposed using tax dollars to build strip clubs throughout the Islamic world precisely to demoralize Muslims.
And yet our propagandists drill us with the mantra "They hate us because we are good. They hate us because we are free."
Our misadventure in Iraq has been one disaster after another and it looks like we won't stop until we have succeeded in creating one world transethnic Islamic Jihad.
If it is Jihad vs Pornocracy I for one am a declared neutral, leaning toward Jihad. What about you? There have been times in history, after all, that Eastern Christendom has fared better under Islam than under the West...

Iconophile

Once again I almost totally agree with you. President Bush says that we're going to rebuild Iraq, so my first question to him would be, "and who's going to rebuild America ?". What exactly do we have to offer the people of Iraq, besides legalised abortion, prostitution and pornography, rampant drug abuse, high crime rates in their cities, an epidemic of teen pregnancies, low cut jeans for girls, gangster style clothing for boys, mood altering medications for Iraqi school kids, so they can shoot their classmates when they're not accepted by the cool kids (and believe me they have the weapons to do it). Gay Pride Parades in Baghdad, Basra and other major cities. Britney, Christina, Jelo, Marilyn Manson and all the rest of our MTV culture, and best of all a mass media that can tell them 24 hours a day, that almost all of these things are really wonderful.

Some conservatives seem to think that many in the Islamic world refer to us as the Great Satan because Jesus Christ is the Lord of our land, but I firmly believe the reason is precisely because Jesus Christ is NOT the Lord of our land.

It is sad that these are the two options, but I fear that you may be right.

I think that Bush and many conservatives are sincere when they think that our culture and values are superior; and when followed, in some ways (those that conform to Christian principles) they are. I have a non-profit that finds adoptive homes for special-needs children around the world, and I can say that no country even comes close to America when it comes to generousity towards the less-fortunate. None of that attitude is broadcast on Arab TV (or American TV), however.

However, our culture is drenched in pornography and the blood of innocent unborn children. Anyone who thinks (as I think Bush, etc. do) that our culture is bascially Christian have to stop being deluded. However, I'm not so quick to lean toward saying Jihad is better - I really want a "third way", and I still believe it is possible for America to claim it.

Why is it not really shocking that the way in which Americans abuse people is sexual in nature? When I first saw the abuse pictures, I thought maybe it was something from Fear Factor.

No, it is what you'd expect when you recognize this country's unholy trinity: Ronald McDonald, Mickey Mouse, and the Playboy Bunny...

Dear Iconophile,

Our people and the values which our country was founded on are basically Christian, and having lived in other countries, I would challenge anyone if they were to say that our people are not one of the the most egalitarian and compassionate people around, and in the history of the world....

HOWEVER, our culture, dominated by the moral values imposed by Hollywood is saturated in sexual license of all kinds...and there is really no way to escape it unless you virtually become an ascete...This, (as you would coin it) 'pornocracy' of the U.S. has been exported adapted,and exploited throughout the world, and THIS is how, unfortunately, the West is viewed through Islamic eyes.

Our Lady, the Virgin Mary, Queen of the Heavens, and Mother of our God herself told the children of Fatima that more souls go to Purgatory because of sins of the flesh than any other sin.

As for 'jihad', the term has been hijacked to rationize sinful battle, when the true term, (if I am recalling correctly) is meant for the battle of the soul,or 'spiritual warfare', as we Eastern Christians would recognize it.

Kyrie Eleison!
Alice

Dear Alice- I understand that the view you profess is common among American Christians, but that of course is only part of our heritage. It is true that there has always been a strong Christian [mostly Calvinist] influence, but it is also true that there was a strong anti-Christian, deist and "freethinking" element among the Founders. As some of us view Protestantism as [philosophically] the halfway house to atheism, we view our "Christian heritage" a bit more sceptically.
We also view the "spiritual" interpretation of Jihad a bit sceptically. Certainly Mohammed carried out a literal, bloody Jihad, as have generations of Muslims. I see Islam as the scourge of God, believing as they do in the Old Testament sort of God; that is they believe in the One God, albeit in a fragmented, incomplete way that sees only His transcendence and His justice.
As always, I hate it when I must disagree with you!
affectionately, Daniel

Dear Daniel,

I don't think that we disagree!

You say:" I see Islam as the scourge of God, believing as they do in the Old Testament sort of God; that is they believe in the One God, albeit in a fragmented, incomplete way that sees only His transcendence and His justice."

I AGREE! Infact, I read somewhere that Allah was one of many pagan Gods and when the idea to believe in one God was chosen, they chose him...sort of like if the Greeks decided to believe in one God and chose Zeus!

I think that we are also not in disagreement about our sexually obsessed and disoriented culture.

I also agree that 'jihad' is a bloody war, but learned somewhere that it was not supposed to be...who knows!

So don't be so disappointed, I don't DISagree with anything, on the contrary, I basically agree and was adding some peripheral thoughts. Perhaps we don't understand each other well? I find that if people want to understand and hear each other, they can..so let's try.

In Christ,
Alice

"Pornacracy" vs. Islam is like Hitler vs.Stalin, one evil against the other.WE IN THE WEST used the one to get rid of the other,but ended up handing over a good portion of Europe to Stalin.Franco of Spain,on the other hand, used the Nazis and Fascists to prevent Spain from become western Europe's first soviet state.(Some say that he secretly sent arms to the Finns during the Winter War with the soviets 1940-41.If so, that was particularly dangerous, since Hitler and stalin were still allies at the time). In any event,Franco should go down in history as the one man who used HItler and got away with it!

Christ is risen!

IIRC "jihad" occurs in the Arabic language Triodion where the Greek has askesis. I will check with an Arabic-speaking classmate.

The sense in which it is commonly used now is, obviously, very different. It would be interesting to know how this word has been used historically in Arabic and Islam.

T

On this, actually I will disagree. The Greek people liked to banter around that phrase in defensiveness against what was often perceived (and many times, unfortunately, rightly so)as Latin superiority. However, in reality, the Greek people and their clergy suffered greatly, worshipped secretly, and were the objects of horrendous public martyrdoms, (such as public hangings of bishops in the town square)...

I don't think that I would ever dare tell any of the souls of men, women, nuns, monks, priests and children that died on my grandmother's island of Chios in a massacre and butchering so great that the artist Delacroix memorialized it in painting, that they were better off under the Moslem yoke than the West. People ran and hid wherever they could, in wells, in churches, and in monasteries. They were hunted and slain by sword in villages high and low, far and wide...

Their blood which still stains the marble of the monastery church of St. Minas, and the skulls that I saw stacked up in a small building on the monastery grounds would cry out differently, I am sure.

Sorry!

Alice

I think that Daniel is basically correct here, I cannot speak for him but he certainly has spoken for me.

The problem is that we, as a culture, have abandoned our own virtuous Christian standards.

I am not saying you or I as individuals so much (well, maybe me!), but we collectively as a society. That is why Islam despises us so much, they don't want us to poison their society like we have poisoned our own. We have the challenge of taking our culture back from the brink. It is a struggle, a jihad if you will. The me-first generation has grown into the me-first culture, the most selfish and wasteful society imaginable.

Along with the unobstructed sale of Coca Cola, condoms and McDonald's that we as a free society will promote throughout the world, there will be daytime television, Faces of Death videos and Larry Flynt publications. This is nothing to be proud of. We need to put our house in order, otherwise we have very little quality to offer the rest of the world!

Recent events have shown that we ride into town like Marshal Dillon thinking we have the moral high ground and neglect to check if our fly is zipped.

I am sorry to use such a crude analogy but we are a Pornocracy, and as Alice has aptly pointed out Hollywood (and the other media) are saturated with sexual licence. We get what we pay for.

Unfortunately today when we rally around the flag of freedom we are making common cause with the most disreputable band of pornographers, abortionists, hedonists and robber barons that have ever come together in one culture, as far as I can tell.

I don't have an answer for this except to return to the idea that we need to convert ourselves and the rest of our culture, or we will be hated by the outside world until judgement day, and perhaps condemned like Sodom and Gomorrah too.

Sorry for the rant, it has been a while since I had a good rant.

Michael

Dear Michael,

That was a VERY good rant! I am in full ranting and raving agreement!

May our Lord have mercy on us and on the whole world!

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

Alice,
That was a pretty good rant yourself (when you remembered the martyrs of Muslim "toleration"). It is true that some Orthodox brethren, frustrated and angry at the sins of the West, get carried away by their own anti-Latinism, anti-Westernism. We need to be careful and get serious in our ecumenical dialogues because there are others in the world who do not care a fig for the fate of Christians. Let us at least care about ourselves! Let us love one another.

Dear KH,

You are right about my rant!

Amen to all that you have said!

Lord have mercy on Christianity,
and forgive us our sins,
Alice

Dear Alice- thanks for that corrective tale; I was only stating what I read by Orthodox authors. Actually, it seems that different Muslim dynasties varied in the degree of tolerance extended to the Church. I doubt the Al Queda types would be very kind; I have read that they believe it a religious duty to slay infidels residing in Islamic nations...
Still, American Christians have been warning that the USA was in danger of God's judgement for a generation. Odd they don't recognize His instruments when they appear.