www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Religious groups rally for immigrants

Dear SPDundas,

Well, I suppose the feeling is mutual; I too am disappointed by your post.

I would like to make very clear that my political stances have all been formed and informed by my Catholic Christian faith -- NOT the other way around. I do not have some sort of political "agenda" for which I am using my faith; rather, my religious "credenda" (that which we believe) determines my political "agenda" (that which we must do).

I will also repeat what I said in my previous post: that neither I nor the US bishops nor the entire Catholic Church supports breaking laws.

I wholeheartedly agree that protecting the lives of Americans is important; what I do not agree with is the idea that protecting Americans' lives is more important than protecting the lives of non-Americans. All of us are human; all of us deserve to be treated according to the dignity that God has given us as being made in His image; Americans are in no way superior to others, nor do Americans deserve anything more than others.

As for excuses, only God can legitimately judge our actions. We know that certain actions (such as lying or stealing, to use your two examples) are objectively immoral, but we cannot assign guilt, because we do not know all the circumstances in a person's life; only God can judge objectively whether a particular person's action in a particular situation is excusable or not. I would like to provide a few relevant quotations from C.S. Lewis, the first three from an excellent -- and very short -- essay, "On Forgiveness", and the fourth from his well-known book Mere Christianity:
I highly recommend the essay -- and it really is very short. And from Mere Christianity (emphasis mine):
As Christians, we are called to forgive ALL sins -- even the sins of those who are not repentant.

Thank you for the sites you posted. The reason I posted the "Justice for Immigrants" website was specifically because it is strongly supported by the USCCB; I had hoped that we on this forum would respect what those who have the triple role of King, Priest, and Prophet have to say about this issue.


Sincerely yours in the Peace of Christ,
Alex Neroth van Vogelpoel
sinner

For the record:

I HAVE NEVER BROKEN ANY U.S. IMMIGRATION LAW.

Before I moved to this country with the intention to stay permanently, I used to visit once or twice a year, all the time with the proper tourist/business person documentation in proper order.

In 2000, I received an employment offer from an American company (one, which, by the way I did not ask for. I am 34 years old I and I've had a number of jobs now, but not a single one I asked for, people ASK ME to work for them).

This American company sponsored my H1B visa and within the validity of that visa, the same company sponsored my Legal Permanent Residency (a.k.a. "Green Card").

So, to those shifting gears to have me deported (yes, I have received private threats from members of this honorable and venerable forum), let me tell you: You will need more than a phone call to the USCIS, because every law in this country that deals with the issue says I am entitled to stay.

Therefore, I am not a citizen (at least not yet), but the world is not black and white. Your legal systems creates a lot of "gray" areas in more than one sense of the expression.

Now, even though I have been able to ride your immigration legal system favorably, I know from experience it is unfair, complicated and slow.

It doesn't serve us immigrants, because it basically ruins the lives of a couple of generations of our people, those who go through the whole process.

And it doesn't serve you, because the fact of the matter is you have 12 million people in your country you do not know who they are, where they come from or whether or not you actually benefit from their being here or not.

And by the way, let me tell you a little something about the cost of immigrants.

There are a few studies that show that immigrants as a whole put more money into the economy in the form of work, taxes and consuption that what they take out in the form of government or charitable services.

Yes, illegal immigrants some times need to ride on someone else's SSN in order to pay taxes, but an illegal immigrant is perhaps more interested in paying taxes than the IRS itself, certainly more interested than the average American citizen and here is why:

As long as it gets paid, the IRS doesn't care that you are riding false or someone else's SSN. It is something they simply do not prosecute. An illegal immigrant can do that with confidence it will not cause him or her to be detected by the immigration authorities or be in any way a hindrance for a possible future legalization.

On the contrary, as you can see with the legal proposals that are around, having a way to proof you have been in the country for some time is always, always, ALWAYS beneficial, and it can even mean the difference between a go and a no-go with the legalization process.

I know people who are in this country with no immigration documentation, but who have not only their tax returns in perfect order, but who actually have every utility bill, every rent receipt, every car payment stub even every McDolands receipt stored safely, just in case it might help document their continued stay in this country.

Yes, these guys are nuts. The tax returns do just as fine, and EVERY illegal immigrant knows that.

But back to my legal status:

I am sorry if I confused you guys, I didn't mean to.

However, what I said remains true: If my Lord did not hesitate to "become" sin to redeem my sins, He who is sinless and perfect! If He is not ashamed to call me His brother, then I think I should not hold my "legal" status as something to be grasped.

If you need to take away my "legal" honorary title to allow me to side with those you call "illegal", there here it is, come and get it.

I am with my people, always, regardless of what your laws say about it.

May God, who has entered into His rest, grant you peace.

Shalom,
Memo

We are both countries built by migrants. The difference is though that yours has been taking in people for longer than mine.

I think the indigenous people of our respective countries would have loved to have been able to turn back the refugees etc who came in waves to take their land and destroy them. It does seem odd that people who are desendents of these invaders later want to close the door on others.

Right now we have changed our refugee policy due to a boatload of Melanesian refugees from West Papua who made it the the Australian mainland.

I think the challenge is to respond as Christians. That's not so easy as it sounds.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Memo,

In this holy season, I am very disappointed and saddened by what you have told us about private threats from members of this forum.

I am also saddened by the anger in the hearts of people I hear on the streets, people whose own parents and grandparents came over to this country for a better life.

I am saddened by intolerance and anomosity towards our fellow CHRISTIANS who pose no threat to our faith.

I am saddened by prejudice, a prejudice that many immigrants: Italians, Greeks, Irish, etc., also suffered when they came here, yet whose progeny have chosen to forget this historical fact through the generations.

May our Christ who died on the Cross because of these sins, have mercy on us and forgive us for the coldness of our hearts.

Please read my previous post on this thread, Memo.

With love in Christ,
Alice

I agree that illegal immigration is indeed a problem (though as the child of an American citizen who was once an illegal immigrant I have, perhaps a slightly different outlook on the whole issue).

It is; however, a legal issue to be handled by our civil authorities.

Charity and offering our brothers and sisters in Christ assistance to ease suffering should never be based on the citizenship or immigration status.

It is not "marxist" to say that Christian charity and love should know no man made distinctions like skin colour, race, ethnicity, sex or green card.

While I deeply deplore much of what Bishop Robert Lynch has done in our diocese I cannot fault him for this stand.

I have worked in a medical clinic that treated the children of itinerant immigrant farm workers. I have seen their bare feet, their hungry face, their sad eyes. I have helped to diagnose their parasitical infections, their bacterial dysentery and their mal-nutritive diseases.

No matter what the choices of their parents how do we as Christians turn our backs on human suffering?

I care about tax payer dollars being used to care for illegal immigrants who do not contribute substantially to the tax base from which they draw.

I care nothing for chartitable donations to the Church going to ease the suffering of any human being.

It is sad, especially during this time of year, to see so many who be so quick to dismiss the needs of our bretheren. We're not talking about the legal issues here. We're talking about Christian charity. We're talking about extending the unconditional love of Christ Jesus to our fellow man.

I for one, choose to put up no barriers to charity.

Now ask me how I feel about legal reforms to immigration laws, or how I feel about legal measues to stop illegial immigration, or how I feel about medicaid for illegal immigrants, or even how I feel about the deportation of illegal immigrants ... You'll find I am anything but Marxist in my approach on these issues.

There is a difference between the legal issues of immigration which are and should be handled by our government and the issue of Christian charity and the government trying to tell religious organizations who they can and cannot help.

I want to "thank" Fr Anthony for moving this thread to the Town Hall forum.

But on a more serious side, some have commented that undocumented persons or illegal aliens or (choose you own description) take jobs from legal residents (citizens and other residents)or somehow depree wages. I, for one, cannot agree.

The construction industry certainly employs a large number of people. Wages range from about $19,000 annually for a unskilled laborer to about $90,000 + for a journeyman. I'd say these are great wages for someone without a college degree. Yet these jobs tend to be filled, at least in AZ, by Hispanic immigrants, mostly from Mexico.

Why is that?

In my own opinion, most parents do not see the construction trades as a "vocation" suited for their children. Those of us who are parents certainly don't encourage our children to excel in high school so that our children can get a job in the construction trades.

In the local Metro Phoenix newspapers, there are more want ads in the construction trade section in the smaller Spanish language newpapers (weeklies), than in the major English language newspapers (dailies). Businesses will advertise were there is a better return on their advertising dollars. This return is measured by responses to those ads.

To inject abit a levity to this subject.

A number of posters remarked that the gardeners in their areas are Hispanic or Mexican. Jesus most certainly must have looked like a Mexican after His Resurrection... did not Mary Magdalen think Jesus was the gardener when she went to the tomb? (cf John 20:14-16)

We must the image of God in every person we meet.

Dear Memo,

I hope I didn't offend you by my post, that wasn't my intention. I just wanted to state that if a person was here and working and contributing he should stay. As you are a Permanent Resident and are contributing I welcome your efforts and pray that you get citizenship soon.

I think that anyone who is milking the system, whether it be illegal immigrants who take advantage of the system so they don't have to work; or welfare recipients who milk the system so they don't have to work, or worse yet have more babies that they can't afford when not even married and usually by more than one father to get more money; or if it is a CEO who founds a Non-Profit Org so he can get tax exempt status; or some of these "preachers" who have multimillion dollar estates, private jets, etc... There are many other examples and they're all wrong.

But I am especially enraged by disability cheats! I will get a call every couple of months asking for disability status for so and so. Usually it is a person who didn't do what I told him to and now he wants to quit his job and get paid for it. I have one patient who draws disability from the Railroad, he is not disabled and he stays at home and has all kinds of toys while his wife works.

As for those who have threatened you, that is deplorable and despicable, especially on a Christian Forum.

This is disgusting. That anyone would make threats against a person in this way is vile.

I am deeply ashamed and embarassed by the actions of my "fellow Americans". And I am deeply saddened to see this on a Christian forum.

Whoever has done this should be deeply ashamed and the moderators and administrators of this board should take disciplinary action against whomever would do such a thing.

Thanks for an excellent post, Carole.

The thread was hijacked right away with a lot of venting about legal aspects of immigration. But Bishop Lynch was responding to the house bill, now dead I suppose, that had been widely described as making assistance to illegal immigrants a crime; it would have made your charitable work a felony! I applaud Bishop Lynch and others who have spoken out against that pending legislation.

Is that why my gardener is named Jesus?


I really don't have a gardener, but at our local Mexican restaurant I asked the cashier what his name meant. "Chuy is short for Jesus," he said. He didn't say "Hay soos" he said "Jee zuss."

"Jobs Americans don't want"? Well, thats interesting. All of you who support illegial immigration now will complain when YOUR job is at risk. Yes, the illegal immigrants will do anything now. But what about their children?

What about me? Don't I have rights too? I am a native born American, a veteran with a college degree, but I can't find a job because any prospective employer can find someone they THINK will work for less.

The only Christian reason for opposing Hispanic immigration is concern for the immigrants, that they will become corrupted by American "culture" and be exploited by big business.
The hostility expressed here is identical to that which all our non-English ancestors experienced and is despicable.
-Daniel

You are all migrants or the decendents of migrants. I can just see some native Americans watching your ancestors and wondering what their children would be doing one day.

Some of your ancestors neighbours (who had migrated earlier) would have thought here goes the neighbourhood, as your families movied in.

Some people are finding it very hard to see Christ in people who risk their very lives (yes some dont make it alive)to do the jobs Americans dont or wont do.

We have people landing on our northern shores and the debate has not really started here yet.
We have had a few bodies washed up from boats they did not make it.

ICXC
NIKA

I highly recommend reading Roy Beck's book The Case Against Immigration which details the devastating effects illegal immigration is having on our country http://www.123helpme.com/assets/15844.html

None of these vitriolic arguements against illegal immigration (which I agree is an issue that should be addressed by our civil legal authorities) has any bearing on the true topic of the article or on the substance of the disagreement that some of us have with your posts.

This isn't about the civil legal issues. This is about charity. This is about alleviating human suffering no matter who it is who is suffering.

You can try to make a political statement out of my belief that every human being should be treated with kindness, charity, Christian love, decency, respect and dignity. But whatever you assumed about my position on the issue from a political/who will I vote for point of view would likely be very inaccurate.

I simply believe that everyone should be treated with charity. Even those on this board who are so filled with vitriol and venom over this topic.

In Christ,

Carole