www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Native American Mass...in L.A.

I'm getting very close to...changing teams...and no, I'll never leave my Red Sox...or Patriots

Guess I just don't understand anymore...

http://www.the-tidings.com/2006/0630/native.htm

james

You've just made the list...

Dr. Eric

Go Cards!

Go Rams!

PS I don't get the syncretism either.

Dr. Eric,

The only reason I posted this was to balance the book with my Byzantine-Episcopal topic...I really do try to limit my Latin tendencies...

Back to the Braves & Cards...

james

Hi,

You probably expect this, but I do not see what do you find objectionable.

Early Christians distinguished themselves by Christianizing the then current and local cultures.

I do not see why that approach should be denied to Native American cultures.

Shalom,
Memo

I see nothing wrong with using NA language and dress at a service. I do feel uneasy about using a term like "Grandfather God"...especially considering the thread about the Presby's tinkering with the Trinity.

All,


I could not agree more with Memo on this.

Christian liturgical practice (whether Catholic or Orthodox) is in large part the product of centuries of organic development. This development has always sought to include much of the traditions of the cultures that would come under Christian influence.

The traditional Roman rite for instance developed in large part from the Roman culture. The traditional liturgical vestments came directly from the style of high ranking Romans. Latin was at one time the vernacular so it was used. And the list goes on and does not pretend to be complete.

In the Eastern Christian world this was much the same.

Look for instance at the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which adapted so much of its culture into their liturgy. The traditional instruments used in the liturgy come from the Ethiopian culture.

There is nothing wrong with extending this 'Christianizing of culture' to the Native Americans or any other group.

Just because one is not accustomed to or does not understand the traditions of other cultures, this does not mean that one should be scandalized because elements of other cultures are present in a liturgy.

Personally, I would be comfortable attending this mass even though I am not Native American, just as I was comfortable attending a Byzantine Catholic liturgy, even though that was also not part my cultural patrimony.

ProCatholico

I do have concerns when the liturgy is changed (except for the common language of said people)and is foreign to the current Latin...why have a standard liturgy and then permit hundreds of variables and exemptions...

Outside the Liturgy I have no problem...

PAX
james

ps-my wife's + father was half Cherokee...

I don't know how the NAs are in your area, but in mine it's hard to tell what actually belongs to their "culture." They want to preserve ancestral burial grounds - not ancestors of their tribe, but of someone - for use as casinos. They wear their native footwear - Nikes. They often dress in plains indian garb for the tourists, which their ancestors never wore. Often they have typical native American names - like Running Bear Schultz. I know they were discriminated against in the past, and if they can turn things to the advantage of their people, more power to them. But some of the "culture" stuff is a bit ridiculous.

The NA's probably have the same problem with main stream America and it's culture. What belongs to it and what is being claimed for it as American Culture. They continue to experience huge social disruption as do many indigenous peoples across the world and no amount of casinos will restore human dignity. The Church which played a part in the suppression of the culture of the people, has rightly responded to the need to teach the Gospel and serve the liturgy using the culture of the people. It takes time to fine tune these matters.

All,

The commercialization of a culture is always a cause for sorrow. It is sheer exploitation of the rich cultural heritage of a people, just for the sole amusement of others.

However, while this is lamentable, one should be mindful of the fact that much of the commercialized culture used to entertain �white folks� in this country IS in fact based on true Native American culture. Now I repeat, that some unscrupulous individuals have profited from �dressing up� their culture with adaptations that they never had originally is truly regrettable. But, this does not take away from the fact that this �dressing up� is based on true Native American culture and while it is often represented to us in an amalgamated form, we should be respectful nonetheless.

Lastly, we all come from different cultures, and on this 4th of July let us remember that in America one of the things that we do take pride in is our great cultural milieu. Let us realize though, that we can only understand our own culture, because we live it everyday of our lives. We must never presume to understand another culture entirely and thus cast judgment upon something we will never fully grasp. We are called to toleration and moreover, respect.

That one person is comfortable attending a Byzantine Liturgy is great, that I am comfortable attending a Pauline Liturgy is great also, that some Native Americans use to worship in a Pauline Liturgy in the Native American tradition is great as well. If they want it, then let them be, by all means do not attend such a mass if it scandalizes you to experience another culture in a Catholic mass setting.

Different strokes for different folks people! The Mass is the Mass, this Native American one is no different, valid in is totality and beautiful in its own right.

ProCatholico

How about a mass adapted for another oppressed minority culture � one mercilessly exploited and 'used to entertain �white folks� in this country' - come on, you know who I'm talking about - the Clowns. I can just see it now, Bozo the Clown as Altar Server and Ronald McDonald the Eucharistic Minister (excuse me, 'Extraordinary Minister' � which in this instance, with those huge red shoes, would actually be accurate�).

Oh wait - in 2002 this type of mass already took place in (where else) California. Picture below... note that the priest joined the entertainment by donning 'clown vestments' - love the polka dot stole with red tassels! :rolleyes:

[Linked Image]

[Fr. Brian Joyce, celebrant. Clown Mass, 1 Sept 2002, 9:15AM, Christ the King Church, Pleasant Hill CA, Diocese of Oakland.]

Allow me to paraphrase:

'Different jokes for different folks people! The Mass is the Mass, this Clown one is no different, vapid in its totality and beautifully trite in its own rite.' *honk honk*


~Isaac (who is compelled to endure unending hours of politically correct 'cultural sensitivity' tripe each and every day of graduate studies at the University of Hawaii.)

I think this would be different stroy if this was going on 300-400 years ago when the missionaries were first arriving and adapting the Liturgy to the people. The Liturgies are now part of the culture and I think that it is way too late in the game to start monkeying around with something that has been established for so long. (Think Forum 9)

Dr. Eric
whose great-great-great grandma was Illiniwek.

Hi,

Well, I disagree.

That a translation into English of a NA expression renders as "Grandfather God" is not sufficient to say anything about the correctness of the original expression.

On the other hand, my grandfather is simply the father of any of my parents. God fits that job description.

Also, in some cultures, the word for "grandfather" is used to address any elder male as a form of affectionate respect, even if there is no blood relationship. What if that expression is just a poetic rendition of what we would say as "Ever-living God".

Or it may be something else we really do not understand very well, because we do not understand the culture very well.

No, I do not think it is like the Rock, Paper Scissors thig going on elsewhere.

Shalom,
Memo

hmmmmmm. as someone who is part Native, and whose grandparents made sure that I had grounding in both Native and White (German) cultures, I am intrigued.
while I do not believe that gambling is a cure for poverty for any people, the level of poverty on many reservation is appalling, to say the least, that is a major factor in the level of alcoholism and suicide that plagues the reservations in America.
I don't dress in native apparell, but I do have a dreamcatcher over my bed and a medicine shield on my wall, plus a library of books on Native America that go back to my early childhood. one look at me, and if you don't think that I look Jewish (of which I have been accused of looking) you'll see the Native influence. my sister looks like Pocohantas for pete's sake, and how Grandpap(eternal rest and memory) ever passed for White is still a mysterium tremendum to me.
as far as Christianity and Native Americans are concerned, two hundred years ago, missionaries under the tutelage of David Brainerd visited my Tribe, and converted them to Presbyterianism. Grandpa's White ancestors were from Holland, came here in 1639 to what the English call New York, and were Dutch Reformed, so it was a logical step for his family to adopt Presbyterianism when they married into Shinnecock Nation. never heard Grandpa refer to God as Grandfather, so I'm a bit mystified.
oh, as far as Native names are concerned, I will sign off with a variation.
Much Love,
Jonn Nightwatcher Mulry

Memo

Based on what you've written, would you then hold that it would be acceptable in a NA Mass for the Our Father prayer to be changed to "Our Grandfather who art in heaven..." or the Creed to "I believe in one God, the Grandfather Almighty... and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Grandson of God... Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Grandfather�" - seriously, where would you draw the line with cultural accommodation in relation to the Divine Liturgy?

~Isaac