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#197896 10/15/03 05:28 PM
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Alex,

Generally speaking I agree with you. I have only one question that troubles me. Help me understand this. You say "you guys" should do a better job of evangelizing at home. You go onto to say that no one should evangelize in someone elses home. Ok, if North America belongs to "you guys", whoever "you guys" are, and "us guys" don't really belong here and neither "you guys" nor "us guys" are supposed to evangelize away from home, then where do "us guys" belong? Are we free from any responsibility to evangelize? Are we supposed to sit around and watch "us guys" die off? Are we supposed to watch "you guys" not evangelize any place but here? While not evangelizing ourselves anyplace and "you guys" evangelize here where we live does that not mean that "you guys" will eventually evangelize "us guys" out of existence?

I must be confused in this matter. Help me out.

Dan Lauffer

PS I oppose Protestant evangelism anyplace not because they are foreign...St. Paul was a foreigner...but because Protestantism is heresy. It seems to be that priorities ought to run something like this: 1. Help the Orthodox get back on their feet in Orthodox lands. 2. If that doesn't work and people want to convert let them. 3. In countries not yet evangelized we have an open field.

#197897 10/15/03 05:49 PM
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My question is this: Why does it seem like there are so many more Protestant Evangelizers about? Is it becuase there are more of them or is it because we don't want to share or is it simply because some people don't like talking about the church outside of church? To me that is a big problem. it seems that Protestants are trained to evangelize against catholics so strongly and they make their stories sound so good that some people get sucked in. Maybe we need to focus on educating youth better.
At my parish we have started something called "Mission I'mpossible" and we have S.M.A.T. "agents". Special Ministries and Tactics.In ECF as teens we are being taught how to defend our faith when we are being "Evangilized" to by Protestants. Perhaps with help this program can spread throughout North America.

-Katie g

#197898 10/15/03 06:30 PM
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Shlomo ALEX,
Poosh is not my name, it is Yuhannon. I do not disrespect you, I would hope that you would not disrespect me.

As to your points.

1. You state: "Cultural factors are important to the spread of Christianity..." I don't disagree, but what does that have to do with any Church claiming a territory or territories as exclusively theirs? Are you for Eastern Catholic Churches going into those areas then since they share the same "cultural factors"?

2. Protestants (including Anglicans) form less than 2% of the population of the Middle East(and that does not even include the Coptics and other Apostolic Christians in Egypt). I would say that we have been successful in keeping them at bay.

3. You state: "I would hope we can be united in advocating aid to the Mother Orthodox Churches of Eastern European and other lands..." Not only do I and other Catholics agree with this statement, but our Churches NOW do give money to help the Orthodox Churches (both Eastern and Oriental). As to the last part of your statement: "...to help them evangelize and spread the faith AND the Church that, before persecution broke out, was in those lands." I and others just as strongly oppose this vailed call for exclusivity. Further, the Catholic Church is the native Church of many peoples in Eastern Europe.

4. You state: "Otherwise, we will be part of the problem, contributing to religious strife and tension, rather than an aid to the solution there." This deserves a big fat NO. Religious strife and tension is caused because people are acting in an un-Christian manner. This type of statement is no better that what Muslims and Hindu state in their respected lands. Religious liberty is a GOD given right, no Church nor state has the right to tell another Church that they can or can not preach to the un-Churched.

5. The Catholic Church does not offer financial inducements for people to join, and it is insultinging to imply that with your statement of: "[i]f attracting converts with money is our Western idea of evangelization, I believe our Lord will condemn us for promoting it."

Poosh BaShlomo,
YUHANNON

#197899 10/15/03 06:34 PM
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Shlomo (Peace in Aramaic) Katie;

I love the SMAT agents line. How about changing it to SMART for Special Ministries and Religious Tactics biggrin ?

Poosh BaShlomo (Stay in Peace),
Yuhannon

#197900 10/15/03 07:46 PM
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Dear Yuhannon,
I like the Religious Tactics part unfortunately we already have our t-shirts made up. We also had a big "training day" for our ECF students. It was like vacation bible school but our parish did it in order to prepare the kids for the ECf school year. it was put on by the teens and at the end they "junior agents" had a message from "the Boss" who was Bishop John. We were very honored that he found time in his busy scheduel for our "training day". it certainly made it very eventful.

-Katie g

#197901 10/15/03 09:36 PM
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Uh, I thought y'all new this, but just because ROMAN Catholicism and Protestantism both are Western forms of Christianity doesn't mean they missionize the same areas or even use the same missionary tactics.

Mexican,

But can all this murder and genocide account for a 54% slip? I don't know, but I wouldn't be inclined to believe so.

Good for the Catholic Church for basically holding its ground amidst the incredible rise of "Independent" Christianity.

Catholics have been murdered in the past century as well. Think about the countries in the World Wars. France and Italy were Catholic, Germany is a little less than half Catholic, the United States (at that time) was somewhere around 20%, and Great Britian probably somewhere around 15%.

Oh, and I think that Judaism really gets the short end of the stick!

Logos Teen

#197902 10/15/03 11:53 PM
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I think the following article fits in very well with a discussion on the Fall of Orthodoxy. WARNING. The "My Country Can Do No Wrong Types" will not like it.http://www.truthinmedia.org/Columns/new-dawn-7-2k.html

#197903 10/16/03 02:23 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by J Thur:
What is often forgotten is the low birthrate in many Christian areas compared to Muslim countries.
And this shouldn't be forgotten. In addition to all the worthy concern about evangelism, we should not expect God to bless our churches with growth when we are not open to new life from Him. Oh, that we had heeded Paul VI! I suspect that contraception is the root of all evil.......

#197904 10/16/03 02:38 AM
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Catholics have been murdered in the past century as well. Think about the countries in the World Wars. France and Italy were Catholic, Germany is a little less than half Catholic, the United States (at that time) was somewhere around 20%, and Great Britian probably somewhere around 15%.

Regarding countries that were very Catholic in the past like France or Holland (and even Great Britain), unbelief has bet all records. Most people there hold a very nominal faith, unfortunately, but no longer believe in God (not to mention Jesus Christ). Secularism threatens Europe, while Protestantism threatens Latin America and East Europe, for example.

#197905 10/16/03 09:46 AM
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Dear Professor Dan,

You have asked me to help you out and I will try wink .

I apologise for sounding combative yesterday - it was all David's fault . . .(kidding).

We are certainly not free from the responsibility to spread the Word of God and add new members to the Church of Christ.

"You guys" was an unfortunate phrase and I meant it in a general "North American" kind of way.

I'm not saying we shouldn't evangelize in Eastern Europe.

The UGCC is growing in Ukraine and elsewhere and is adding new eparchies, much to the chagrin of both Moscow and Rome, as I understand.

But the UGCC has made a statement that it doesn't get involved in the affairs of other churches and it doesn't expect that other churches will get involved in its affairs.

I agree with your point 1 absolutely. We should help the Orthodox in Russia especially get back on its feet.

There is such a thing as a "mother Church" or a "national Church" in CERTAIN countries, especially in Europe.

The Orthodox Churches remember too well how Roman Catholicism attacked it militarily via the crusades and see the Union of 1596 in not much better a light.

That Roman Catholicism wishes to evangelize the unchurchedin Russia is not a new phenomenon.

Even Bl. Leonid Fyodorov commented on the "cheek" of RC missionaries trying to "evangelize" Russians - Russians who at that time were being martyred en masse by the soviets for Christ.

And I think that Western missionaries, Catholic and Protestant, are too quick to see the need for evangelization in other lands where it is perhaps easier to convince materially poor and suffering people and get them to join their churches.

It is a much bigger and more complex enterprise to evangelize what I will call "post-Christian North America."

Let's help the Orthodox fulfill their mission. There is a cultural/national component to the Orthodox Churches - as there is with all Western Churches - and that ought to be respected as well.

Otherwise, I agree fully with your three point plan and do ask your forgiveness, in the Name of Jesus Christ, for any and all offense that I have given.

Alex

#197906 10/16/03 10:13 AM
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Alex,

Dear brother. No offence taken.

We have an enormous task ahead of us in "re(?)-evangelizing" North America. I'm not sure if we or any country or continent has ever fully been evangelized. At any rate, the predominant mindset in N.A. is surely not Christian. We could learn much from the courage of our forebears in Central and Eastern Europe and much from the newer Christians in Asia and Africa.

Dan Lauffer

#197907 10/16/03 10:22 AM
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Dear Yuhannon,

I apologise for so wrongly (and stupidly) assuming that "poosh" was, in any way, part of your name.

I also hope that you will strive to educate ignorant people like me about your language and culture so that ignorance, such as I have demonstrated, will be less noticeable in our future correspondence.

1) I don't know about hard and fast categories concerning ecclesial territoriality. There are cases today when Rome asks Constantinople not to accept certain breakaway Catholic groups into Orthodoxy and vice-versa. Those two Churches do have some system of defining and respecting each other's territoriality - but I wouldn't be able to say what it is exactly.

Rome has already told the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church to stick to its historical territories of pastoral operation. We've always been told that in the diaspora and now we are told this in our ancestral homeland. And yet, eparchies are springing up throughout Ukraine. I guess we don't always listen to Rome. I think God loves us for such disobedience though wink .

Russian Greek-Catholics have it much worse though - they are directly under the RC jurisdiction in Russia and cannot set up their own eparchies. Only Roman Catholicism may do that in Russia so as not to offend Russian Orthodoxy. This is yet another example of Rome totally misreading the cultural and historical situation in Russia. And I agree with Professor Dan above with respect to Orthodoxy in these lands. Evangelism will fail if it will result in greater inter-ecclesial tensions.

2) As for the Anglicans in the Middle East, I understand that people do hold them in esteem, as I've discussed with Bishop Henry Hill, the author of "Light from the East" and with Fr. Marcos at St Marcos here in the Queen City of Toronto. That relationship is something for everyone to emulate, especially in modern Russia today.

3) I am happy to hear, and now cases of, aid to Orthodox Churches. I also am painfully aware of Catholic missionizing among the Orthodox. I once had a public argument with Greek-Catholic monastics in Ukraine who insisted on distributing Catholic "conversion" pamphlets to Orthodox school-children and insisted on praying for Orthodox conversion to Catholicism with them. I have seen that with my own eyes and so have many of my relatives and friends.

The Catholic Church is not the native Church of Russia. Of course, who can oppose Catholic outreach in the Catholic countries formerly under communism? This is not about exclusivity at all, but sensitivity to the fact that Eastern European Orthodox cultures have always had their Orthodox Churches at the HEART of their identity as a people and their cultural way of life.

Rather than go and try to convert Russians to what would be for them culturally foreign Churches, we should be supporting Orthodox evangelization which is growing by leaps and bounds there. The message of Our Lady of Fatima is being fulfilled in the Orthodox Churches there - Christians are receiving the sacraments and are attending Churches, miraculous icons and saints are being glorified and the Gospel of Christ is being heard and accepted.

Again, this is not exclusivity, but ecclesial/cultural sensitivity. The fact is that the West has failed miserably in this regard and has only caused unnecessary tension among the Churches of the East in this respect.

4) You mention the issue of religious liberty. However, there are many countries where homogeneity of religious practice is an ages-old tradition, including among several European countries where Roman Catholicism has always figured prominently. There is the "mainstream religion" and then minority religions.

Even in democratic USA, Protestantism is the mainstream religion and Catholicism has always been a minority faith. Catholics (and even Lutherans whose rituals made them resemble Catholics and so they tended to be lumped together with Catholics) were discriminated against in the land where "all men are created equal."

The fact that Ontario has, only now, its first Catholic Premier also indicates the fact taht Protestantism holds sway in Canada, even though half the population here is Catholic.

Religious strife and tension can be caused by a number of things. I would submit that the situation in India between two different religions is not the same as what is occurring in Russia between Christians.

When we "preach the Gospel," we are always communicating not only the essence of the Christian message, but also a specific cultural framework in which that Christian message is couched.

Roman Catholics going into Russia to preach to the unchurched will be, of necessity, bringing a cultural context that is truly foreign to the Russian one.

This is why evangelization has often failed in Asia - the western cultural context that came with the Christian message made the Gospel look like a religious form of Western cultural imperialism.

Russia is not a pagan territory. Russia has a Christian culture that is over a millennium old. Russia sent missionaries into China and Christianized Alaska etc. Russia is not unchurched at all. Its Church suffered persecution for Christ the likes of which Roman Catholicism has not known - thankfully.

This is why we are not being fair to the tradition of Russian Christianity when we do not respect it by trying to introduce Western forms of Christianity. The Pope of Rome respects Russian Christianity highly, notwithstanding the apprehensions and feelings of Orthodox Christians.

Earlier in his pontificate, I remember him saying that Moscow was a "Third Rome." There is no greater commendation of Russian Christianity than that.

This has nothing to do with religious liberty interpreted as license. It has everything to do with respect and sensitivity. Without those two values, I believe we cannot claim to be Christians.

5) I did not say the Catholic Church offered material inducements to join it in Russia. I was thinking of Protestant sects who do this and I have family members over there who have become Protestants, not because they accept Protestantism, but for those material benefits.

But the fact is that many people do see joining Western Christian groups as a possible way out of their situation of poverty and misery in the former Soviet Union. Some may wish to "try something new" (which is also why you will find Hare Krishna Ukrainian and Russian children in schools).

My point relates more to the fact that people there are vulnerable and see anything Western as suggesting a chance at material prosperity and the like.

So, please do not accuse me of what I did not say. I do know of people who have joined the Latin Catholic Church over there, including two family members, who have done so primarily because they want to be with a Church that, for them, represents the materially prosperous West. That is not the fault of the Latin Church, to be sure. But it does point to the vulnerability of the people in this and other respects.

I apologise to you, Yuhannon, for anything that I have said that has caused you offense.

I stand by what I've said in everything else.

Alex

#197908 10/16/03 10:26 AM
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Dear Professor Dan,

Yes, an excellent point!

For me, the New Martyrs of Eastern Europe represent the prototype of suffering and witnessing Christianity that we need in North America today.

I think there will come a time when Christians here will suffer martyrdom. I believe it can happen.

Russia itself has had its faith bathed in martyric blood.

We have a choice in North America, cleansing via asceticism or via martyrdom.

The first is voluntary, the second is imposed by others.

I, for one, opt for the first one!

Alex

#197909 10/16/03 12:52 PM
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Alex,

But I've always understood that Catholics do not go into Russia to missionize, but merely to minister to and sustain the Catholic populations already present there.

What about Orthodox missionizing of traditionally Catholic countries, like France and Mexico?

Logos Teen

#197910 10/16/03 12:59 PM
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Dear Teen Logo,

I'm sure that most Catholic missionaries or priests in Russia don't do that, as you say.

But I know that this does go on, unfortunately.

The Orthodox presence in Western countries is quite different, I think.

The Orthodox Churches are approached by Westerners who have issues with their own churches and ecclesial communities and want to join Orthodoxy out of a sincere desire - rather than any sort of pressure of any kind or as a response to active proselytism.

I think that is a difference worth pondering.

Alex

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