www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall New News From SSPX!

Maybe if the blanket permission is given, organized groups of pro-Tridentine Diocesan priests that would promote and teach the Old liturgy to other priests will appear, they already exist in Britain (but they are still not recognized because they're Diocesan clergy.)

But the case you describe is quite true, that's why it would probably be better for traditional latins to have priests from organized societies who would always celebrate only the Old Mass, they would feel safe with them. :p

What always concerns me is this: is the "traditional" and "latin" liturgy the most important element in the salvation of souls?

The Roman Church has a 'sacramentary' that contains all the liturgies, both eucharistic as well as sacramental (funerals, baptisms, chrismations, marriages, etc.). This is the 'official' text for the Roman Church as approved by the Holy Father and the appropriate episcopal synod for a country. By what right do folks get off requesting a 'special' service from the "old books" and in a different language no less? Aren't the official texts good enough for these folks? Are they somehow "royalty" who perforce of their blue blood can seek special accommodation?

I can well accommodate a scholar who devoted his/her life to Ambrosian chant requesting such at his/her funeral. Or a chant master who taught Gregorian for 50 years requesting the "in Paradisum" in Latin/Gregorian chant. But for anybody else, my question would be: WHY do you expect special accommodation apart from what is given for ALL the baptized who are going 'home'?

We Byzantines usually don't have this problem; our texts are 'set' and in many ways, immutable. But we too have variations based upon the person; but these variations are quite minor; and we would (in general) not allow the major variations sought in the Western Church.

So: pray. For the living and the dead.

Christ is Risen!!!

My only problem with the Tradiation Latin Mass movement is that it seems to fracture the local church even more than it already is.

This goes for the all those byzantine churches with multiple liturgies also.

We no longer have a parish community at St (whatever) when there are multiple liturgies, we have the 8:00am community, the 9:30am community, the 11:00am community, and lets not forget the 5:00pm Saturday Vigil community.

And within the Roman Church, these groups find it even harder to get together as the Masses are all different (ie no singing at the 8am Mass).

The Trad Latin group form their own communites. At least the Anglican Use praishes are just that, a parish that uses the Anglican Use Rite.

But with the Bishop who was overseeing the Anglican Use leaving, I wonder what the future of that is.

IMHO I do not think that any Church should support more than one Rite as this causes fractures within the Church.

David

David:

If you believe that no Church should support more than one Rite, why are you not Latin?

kl

I do not understand your question. No individual church should support more than one Rite.

The Latin Church should only have the Latin Rite, just as the Byzantine Churches have only the Byzantine Rite.

I am sure you are aware that the Catholic Church, or better yet, the Universal Catholic Church, is made up of 22 seperate "suris juris" Churches.

I do not think that the whole Universal Church should have one Rite, and I do not see how you could get this from my post.

David

Dear Amado,

But the "Anglican Use" is also considered a usage of the Roman Church, is it not?

Otherwise, it would be called a "Rite," right?

I think the whole difficulty with the Tridentine/Novus Ordo situation in your Church is that many bishops do realize that if given a real choice - most Catholics would probably prefer the Tridentine Rite.

And to be sensitive to Dr. John's suggestion about relating topics to the Eastern Church, I will say I am all for a reformed Tridentine Rite with no Filioque and a stronger Epiclesis!

Ultimately, I don't agree with Dr. John here.

If Orthodoxy itself agreed with Dr. John, there would be no Western Rites.

I'm afraid we Easterners sometimes tend to "ghettoize" ourselves quite without any help from the West.

We are not only about a different liturgical/theological/Particular Church identity.

What we are about is also what we should want the West to be about too - Theosis, the strong emphasis on the Resurrection event etc.

I'm getting myself into all sorts of trouble here, don't you think?

Alex

Alex notes: "Ultimately, I don't agree with Dr. John here. If Orthodoxy itself agreed with Dr. John, there would be no Western Rites"

And the problem with this is.......?

Christ is Risen!!

Dear Dr. John,

O.K., O.K., point taken . . .

But with all the SARS precautions around in our parishes right now, being in them certainly FEELS a bit like attending a Western Rite . . .

A blessed Pascha to you, O Greek bearing all sorts of gifts to us here on the Forum!

Alex

Dear Friends:


Before Dr. John gets antsy for my "continuing" this thread, let me cite the "official" Vatican stance on the possible reconciliation of 3 of 4 major Bishops of the SSPX:

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=35401

I hope this news item will now put the "rumors" to rest.

AmdG

Dear Amado:

At EWTN they are quoting the same news story as everyone else.

There has still been no official statment from Rome.

I hope its true but I doubt it.


defreitas

Dear Jose and Amado,

I hope it's true and I see no reason to doubt that story.

But we'll see on May 24th - which also happens to be the Methodist commemoration of Aldergate and the feast of John and Charles Wesley!

We're very ecumenical here!

Alex

Dear Alex and Lauro:


Here comes the "denial" by the SSPXers:

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=35418

Yes, I think we have to stay tuned up to R-Day!


AmdG

Dear Amado,

Formal denials are commonplace in these matters, especially when leaks to the press are concerned.

Politicians have been known to do the same thing . . .

Alex

Dear Guys:

The only reason as I see it for a denial at this point is if they are still trying to get that fourth bishop to join.

We will see.


defreitas

Dear Jose,

That's my guess as well.

And if the SSPX is waiting for a more conservative Pope before they would contemplate joining back with Rome . . . they will be sorely disappointed.

What would be even more interesting, to me at least, would be the reaction of Catholics once the SSPX parishes are "O.K." and also the reaction of bishops who have hitherto pretended that the Tridentine/Novus Ordo issue doesn't exist.

The Orthodox aren't the only ones with "Old Believers" among them!

Alex